BICYCLES

Actually, come to think of it, my biggest peeve about VR cycling simulation on trainers would be the downhills and cornering.

I suppose someone could come up with "fairly simple" powered stationary trainers that actually "freewheel" your bike to create a more realistic downhill experience but cornering (w/freewheeling) simulation could get expensive to simulate... and then there are the road undulation, pothole simulations.

 

and for the most accurate experience... being chased by dogs.

 

...or for the full grand tour experience, having to also avoid being mobbed and struck down by drunken rideside fans, wayward TVcam motorbikes, team cars. Should be doable, no?

 

Or try for the "local ride" experience - every so often have someone smoke you with diesel exhaust and shout "GET OFF THE ROAD, *******!"


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A user's couple bikes on bikeforums. The built-up bike he did himself, cutting each piece from 3m reflective tape, underneath is a standard matte black frame. Not sure if he did the RB frame himself, it's on a wall in his office.
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The "Red Bull" frame is for a tri bike but looks very cool! Be interesting to see it fully built-out.

The "3M Tape" is also very cool, very artistic, but I don't think the tape is durable enough... would also add weight and tape edges add aero drag. Maybe he was experimenting before applying the airbrush.

Just out of curiosity, I did an inverted pattern which would simulate the results of using the 3M tape as masking tape.
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^ With some Conti GP4000 S2 "reflex" tires, this would be the biz!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNQx7gIzrQ

 

^ Yow! + Image Unavailable, Please Login [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfWzeGlaFvI]LifePaint[/ame]

 

I love Specialized bikes but their pricing on framesets across the board is pretty wacky. Tarmac is the most glaring example where the frameset and complete Ultegra bike are the same price.

 

It was bound to happen. At 28 seconds into this video I'm achieve maximum stupidity. On the other hand, watts be damned - this will test your core balance like nothing else!

https://youtu.be/xyv1Deyrw2M

 

I've seen something similar with BMC bikes with Ultegra spec equipment vs frameset pricing whereby it was actually cheaper to get the Ultegra-equipped model, strip and "trade-in" the unused Ultegra gear for a token value against a Campy upgrade than to buy the same frameset and add the Campy gear.

It's obviously a marketing phenomenon and one which I suspect is almost entirely due to Shimano's aggressive low-ball pricing to dominate market share for equipping fully-built bikes. They're trying to keep out SRAM and Campy and to monopolize the market.

If you compare the Specialized framesets against other high-end makes with similar cachet, they'll probably be very similarly priced. At least, that's what I have found in general. People who shop framesets have to be very "motivated" to pay the price as fully-built bikes are so much cheaper but certain categories of bikes do attract picky buyers, and I think that's the only reason why makers even bother to purposely market framesets. Some makers do offer fully-built bikes in Campagnolo, SRAM and Shimano Dura-Ace + different wheelsets. Wilier Triestina is one of those.

 

Nice. Although none of us can appreciate the difficulty.

 

Once you get the hang of it, it's really not too difficult.

BTW, you jinxed me with your OSX/iOS comment. I thought I'd be clever and use my iPad to drive my FE-C rollers last night for a simple spin on TrainerRoad. G-D thing froze the rollers four times in the course of an hour. Spinning along peacefully, the rear drum basically locked down and my power skyrocketed to 400+ before I could dismount safely.

This has happened before, and I honestly wonder if there is some kind of radio interference in my basement. One simple post (a few months ago) by our resident pro, Sherpa, has me scouring Craigslist for Kreitler 3" rollers now...
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I'll be honest here: From 1998 to 2014 I was a huge Campy fan. For a long time I would be just about the only person on the start line with a Campy equipped bike and all of the Shimano service techs in neutral support used to hate me. I had every one of my bikes equipped with Record or Super Record right up until EPS came out. When EPS was released they sent me the fourth or fifth set in the US and I had a Parlee prototype bike built up with it. Well, from the start I couldn't get the left hand shifter to work consistently. Sometimes it would work for a few minutes and then I would go hours not being able to get it to change gears on the front. Campy was absolutely no help either. They said I would have to buy a new set of shifters because the trouble shooting indicated nothing wrong (yet it didn't work). After a year of all kinds of non-fixes, I ditched it and had Parlee send me a Ultegra Di2 equipped bike in 2015 and haven't looked back.

I don't race any more so only performance, durability and reliability matter. Weight is a non-issue. I would like to say what today's Campy is like but honestly, Shimano has made their stuff so easy that it's hard to switch at the moment.

 

Sherpa, I'm with you...
I started racing in the UK as a school boy in 1979. Riding a Holdsworthy equipped with Campagnolo Gran Sport I never thought I would turn my thoughts to Shimano. Now 52 years old and no longer 'racing', well, not crits anyway, I realized that i had spent 34 years aligned with Campagnolo. My last groupset was a mechanical Super Record hitched to a custom Colian Columbus Nivachrom tubed frameset but as I finally transitioned to a full carbon frame I was offered a Shimano Dura Ace mechanical group to try.
Well it's been 3 years now and like you, I'd be hard pressed to go back to Campagnolo. This stuff is really that good.

Stay upright!
Stephen.

 

Without going too much into product details, I think Campagnolo and Shimano both have good and not-so-good gear. Users of both EPS and Di2 product lines do experience problems. I avoid electronic shifters for good reasons but I am tempted to try EPS for my TT bike as it would present tangible benefits, otherwise I don't see enough advantage using electronic shifters for my road bikes to justify the added complexity, weight and disproportionate expense (new bike frames). I'm not a fri**ing pro bike team with access to free frames and equipment!

Since I don't have any 1st-hand experience with the Campy vs Shimano electronic shifters I can only comment on what I see from complaints from cyclists... most of the problems seem to be related to how the equipment was installed and/or avoidable stress on the wiring/battery/controllers during use. In your situation, it appears your bikes were built for you and were serviced by mechanics who were, let's say, more "comfortable" with Shimano equipment. I guess "whoops" happen and can be forgiven if they were forced to service a competitor's brand of gear. I was in retail at one point in my career so I know how the equipment supplier perks system works.

Shopping Campagnolo vs. Shimano is not a purely technical/scientific, cut-and-dry choice for many cyclists familiar with bike racing gear. I'm also no longer racing and don't intend to start up again either. So cycling is mainly a health-fitness as well as personal enjoyment activity. My enjoyment of the equipment is like my enjoyment of high performance cars where it's not all about performance or numbers but about how they look and feel as well as how I feel when I use them. Racing bikes and sports cars share common DNA and explains why many people who ride racing bikes with sufficient means also own Ferraris and vice versa.

Shimano cycling equipment would probably not even exist if it wasn't for Campagnolo innovating racing equipment when the French makers fell behind. For many reasons, you could say comparing Campy vs Shimano is very much like comparing Ferrari vs Porsche or Mercedes. What would happen if Ferrari were forced to stop innovating cars like LaF, XX cars or have to exit F1 because people stopped buying Calis and 488s?

There is a place for Mercs, Pcars and Fcars in motorsports and we would all miss them sorely if any of them were to exit the scene. There are actually far fewer choices in racing bike equipment than in sports cars so it would be much more devastating for bike racing if Campagnolo were to exit. That's one of the reasons why I justify my spending more money than I have to, when I buy from the little Italian company.

Campagnolo, a small private company founded in 1933 by a racing cyclist, solely focused on cycling has been gradually sidelined as equipment supplier(sponsor) to the big Pro Tour teams but it did manage to supply 3 teams out of 22 at the last Tour de France (Shimano supplied 18). Of the top 10 finishers in the general classifications, 2 riders (from Movistar) used Campy gear and the same Campy-equipped team was also #1 in the overall team category. So while you may say Campagnolo gear was not the reason for Movistar's success, you can also say using Campagnolo gear did not hurt them either.

The equipment would seem to work pretty good when serviced properly.

 

I think I have something like 15,000+ road miles on my 7900 Dura Ace Di2 main road bike over the past few years - never ONE single problem! Clean chain, cassette, etc. and replace chain and cassette every now and then, but no Di2 failure or mishaps, not a single one. I ride my spare bike as a trainer on a Wahoo Kickr, also 7900 Dura Ace Di2, and also not a single hick-up.

 

That's good to know but Shimano Di2 problems do happen to quite a few people as do Campagnolo EPS problems.

 

You can always find problems with even the most perfect product... Nothing is perfect: product, user, or installer... things do go wrong... it is the frequency at which it happens that matters...

 

And for every person where something does go wrong, frequency would seem to be infinite. While on the other end of the spectrum, like with Fcars, if the car works for other people, it just depends on whether you desire it.

 

No one expects everything to be problem free. I wasn't even all that fazed when I had a problem with EPS. What bothered me was that Campagnolo USA didn't even care. I said send me new shifters and they said they wouldn't. They wanted me to take the whole bike apart and send them pieces and then they would look and see if they could find the issue.Remember, at that time I was still a professional cyclist and I was testing a prototype for Parlee with this on it. How was I going to take it all apart and then send it to them in pieces and still be able to test it.

The only reason that EPS was on that bike was because I insisted on it. The lack of support was what bothered me. What's dumb is that a hundred dollars or so cost them a great supporter and customer. It will be very hard for them to get me back at this point and over $100?? I don't think that makes sense from a business perspective. Remember also that I refused sponsorships from Shimano and SRAM so that I could have the freedom of choice in equipment. I had to pay for my Campagnolo parts (a big discount but I still paid) because I loved the stuff.

Anyways, this is just my experience. I am sure that there are lots of people who have flawless experiences with Campagnolo and love it. I'm just not one of them.

FWIW, I am fine with the last generation of cable shifters but bicycles are changing and frames are now engineered for no cables and things like that so I had to change with the times. I still have an older cabled bike but the new bikes are new bikes and if I have to test them, then it is what it is.

I think that I might spring for some of those SRAM wireless shifters next time I do a new bike (which may be a long time).

 

You know, I am not surprised at all by the ridiculous response you received from Campagnolo USA. While I haven't had to contend with Campagnolo (yet) I've experienced this sort of nonsense from other European companies. European companies, especially older ones, tend to treat customer service as if they are dealing with the enemy. I think it comes from having the wrong people in charge. Sometimes it's because the company is closely-held, private or simply staffed by people who hire or place customer service staff according to political priorities rather than merit. This is very unfortunate because it is a disservice to the people who develop and produce otherwise good products.

Regarding SRAM RED eTAP, I think wireless controls would be a very meaningful improvement, once they are perfected. If you plan to try the first iteration from SRAM I hope you will also receive full factory support if not sponsorship to test the product. Please keep us informed if you do proceed.

The way electronic shifters are currently installed and maintained, aside from ridiculous pricing, accounts for much of my dislike for the current crop. IMO, as you alluded partly, bikes are inherently mechanical designs, perfected over many decades and generations. Shoehorning digital electronic shifters into an analog mechanical design reminds me of the early designs of F1-style transmissions ...involuntary guinea pigs. Shimano marketed electronic shifters in spite of the wiring mess and Campagnolo, SRAM followed suite to avoid being left out. The idea was not fully fleshed-out.

I would dread having battery problems, calling tech support when my bike doesn't shift gears when I'm many miles from home so I'll stay with manual equipment until we have "reasonable DCT equivalents" of shifters.

 

I probably will wait until SRAM has a second generation of the product out there. I might get a discount but I highly doubt that they would send me a set for free. I don't think that they have a budget for parts to send to washed-up has-beens.

Still, It would be nice to try out because what I would like to build with them is a road bike set up built around a TT frame. I have some thoughts on this but this has been an idea of mine for a while (that was the idea behind my Parlee track frame and how we made it). The problem with road TT bikes is that the cable routing is so horrible. If you can pare it down to just the rear brake cable, I think you open the door to some interesting bikes.

 

Is this fear based on actual experience or are you just hypothesizing? If actual experience which setup did you experience this dead in the tracks far from home problem with? - maybe you just need a more robust brand/solution. Breaking a spoke will also put you out in the middle of nowhere... as can multiple flats on long rides... I have experienced both and have had to call for pick-up, but never because of a Di2 shifting issue... I think your fear is irrational Running out of battery would be your own fault - a charge last for 1000+ miles and you check before rides if there is power for what you have in mind...

I honestly don't see the problem with the wires and the compatibility with a mechanical bike. You have wires instead of cables, so...? Frames have been made for internal wiring for years already. Making the shifters wireless sounds great, but perhaps a marketing stunt more than real value - you still need power to all components: shifters, deraileurs. No?

My last $0.02: Thousands of miles on mechanical shifters and thousands of miles on Di2 - no problems with Di2, while adjustment and maintenance required with mechanical shifters. No question in my mind what is more robust, efficient, convenient, and better

 

Not sure about "washed-up has-beens"... I think "seasoned veteran" comes across better.

I also imagine professional experience testing different equipment is probably more mportant for a tester than being currently competitive. The top riders probably do not want to use experimental or the latest (untested) gear and any failures due to lack of testing would also look bad on the supplier.

I don't have any personal experience with SRAM equipment but they look like a serious outfit. I have a set of their Zipp 404 wheels and they work very well. I'd also be interested to try a set of gen2 SRAM RED eTAP if they fit my TT bike.