My 11,300$ Carbon Problem | FerrariChat

My 11,300$ Carbon Problem

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Ferrari FXX, Dec 8, 2016.

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  1. Ferrari FXX

    Ferrari FXX Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2007
    396
    Ok I made a thread a few weeks ago AVH warning light came on I took my car in for service.

    "James as we just discussed the avh warning is caused by an engine system fault for the intake flap. Before we can isolate the faulty part we need to remove the intake manifold and disassemble it to get to the flap to complete further testing. once we have completed the testing I will contact you with the final estimate. the cost to remove, disassemble and complete testing of this flap issue will run $2325.00 +tax. If you would like us to proceed with the diagnosis please respond to this email with your authorization to continue. I will be in touch as soon as I know more. thank you for allowing us to service your Ferrari"

    Got a call today. I have severe carbon build up and the flaps to the intake manifold won't consistently open and close. Ferrari says they can't use a special carbon cleaning solution because it will destroy certain seals in the manifold. The verdict: They have to order new flaps and other parts from Italy, it will take 2 weeks to get here and 2 days for them to put my car back together. My final bill 11,300 plus tax. They told me they will vigorously detail and wax my car for doing business with them and they'll ship it back to me for free. It would look like a show room collectors car never driven. LOL!!!!!

    I guess its only money. Am I being taken for a ride or what? My shop told me this is ultra rare and this hardly never ever happens. They see something like this once every ten years and I shouldn't worry. He said my Italia was in perfect mint condition and he did say that driving it more wouldn't have prevented this problem.

    Am I using the wrong gas? I just use shell premium. Any input will be appreciated.
     
  2. Financialman

    Financialman Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2005
    1,841
    San Jose CA
    Full Name:
    Dan Carpenter
    I have never heard of this happening??

    My 458 has 34K miles on it and runs perfectly, but I do "Italian" tune ups on a regular basis!
    The dealer techs told me push the car now and again with redline shifts ect...
     
  3. Kenny94945

    Kenny94945 Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    201
    Marin Calif
    Well I don't know.

    For a comment the Shell gas should be OK....it is Top Tier and has detergents.
    The Shell station could (just thinking outside the box) be suspect as to the stations holding tank mix ratio and quality....so maybe try different stations as opposed to using the same station every time.
    Altering Top Tier brands every other fill-up is also not a bad idea as each brand has a different blend of detergents/ chemicals.

    Yes, Italian tuneup (eg hi rpm drives) can help remove carbon buildup.
    Techron additive can (well debatable anyway) help keep buildups reduced.
    Aftermarket (K&N or oiled airfilters) can be a cause of throttle body vane debris buildup.

    From Chevrolet LS V8 motor forums, these engines also experience carbon buildup in the throttle bottle vanes and intake track. Seems the issue is smog devise related and a Catch Can aftermarket part is what many use to keep the build ups limited.

    Finding a Catch Can and installing on a 458...I have no leads.

    Perhaps another co-member has a similar story and can add an answer as to the "are you being taken for a ride" question.

    Good luck.
     
  4. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    98,539
    Vegas baby
    Nothing ever changes

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4UhOeYYXAA[/ame]
     
  5. 2006m5

    2006m5 Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2008
    912
    huntingdon valley PA
    11300..,,that is mucho money.
    I just don't get it.
     
  6. maxvonauto

    maxvonauto Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 23, 2015
    159
    Corona
    Full Name:
    Mark
    If your variable intake volume valves have carbon I hate to think what your intake valves look like! Make sure you have the dealer inspect the intake valves once the intake manifold is removed.
     
  7. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,586
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Sorry to hear of your troubles but it sounds like the dealer is vigorously detailing your wallet.

    I thought I saw this posted here a couple years ago but don't recall the cause. Perhaps someone will post for you. I always use Shell fuel, Lucas Oil fuel treatment/lubricant, and store with Sta-Bil if that helps you. Definitely have them image the valves/stems in the intake ports. I understand your concern of it reoccurring without knowing the cause.
     
  8. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Very sorry to hear all this ...

    The Q however seems to be: how to prevent carbon on the valves ...

    Is the solution: more driving ... and always 3000 revs or more and never in 4th gear ?

    So do they say: no old lady like driving ?
     
  9. geochin

    geochin Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2012
    306
    NJ
    Full Name:
    George
    Had the same problem. The dealer said it happens a lot but said take the car a hard run. His estimated the cost to replace the valve, parts $200, labor $600 if the run doesn't work. Ran the car at high speed at full RPM. Problem gone. BTW 2013 Spider with 22k miles and issue just happen
     
  10. Snewton94024

    Snewton94024 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2015
    530
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Steve Newton
  11. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    So indeed: drive it like you stole it :D
     
  12. supratime

    supratime Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2006
    597
    That's a serious slap in the face! 10k+ bill for not driving fast enough �� Reminds me next time to give her a real good spankin haha
     
  13. SCEye

    SCEye F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2009
    2,950
    Norcal - Peninsula
    this is a problem in the Audi RS4 (MY 2007-08). I looked into buying one for DD but got an A6 instead. Costs $1000 every 2 years to remedy.
    never heard of this in a Ferrari.
    perhaps you could do some reading on this as a place to start. good luck.
     
  14. DavidJames1

    DavidJames1 Formula 3

    Mar 6, 2010
    1,678
    Bangkok, Thailand
  15. 6t7

    6t7 Karting

    Aug 19, 2012
    174
    Oz
    Full Name:
    Brett
    My wifes Q7 had a similar issue, and a similar price to repair relative to the price of the car.

    In my old life, as an auto mechanic, I used to always push a car a little during a road test to see what came out the exhaust. Sometimes you'd briefly get a carbony (my own term) exhaust cloud and you would know the owner is babying their car too much. After a little clearing of the cobwebs followed by ten minutes of normal driving the motor would be noticeably smoother. Carbon buildup is EVIL.
     
  16. x-tremetuning

    x-tremetuning Karting

    Mar 12, 2016
    53
    Hungary
  17. mdslone

    mdslone Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    332
    South
    Full Name:
    FerrariM
    I copied this and sent it over to friend who works on 458's. I think you should get a second opinion. Not sure if that price makes sense. Unless most all cost is labor?
     
  18. metaldriver

    metaldriver Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2015
    631
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Andy Vecsey
    I spoke to Ferrari dealership # 1 and they use a "intake cleaning kit" which sounds to me like a chemical cleaner. I am a bit skeptical but others report good results. Regardless, how often does that treatment need to be applied ... monthly, quarterly, mileage?

    I spoke to Ferrari dealership # 2 and they do not use any cleaning solution, because in the end, all direct injection engines are susceptible to carbon deposits. Look at post #39 in this thread.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/465589-walnut-shells-cleaning-intake-ports-di-engines-2.html

    Ferrari FXX - did your engine intake look like those pictures? Which flap was your shop referring to?
     
  19. MME

    MME Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2015
    272
    Dallas, TX
    Full Name:
    Marty
  20. Financialman

    Financialman Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2005
    1,841
    San Jose CA
    Full Name:
    Dan Carpenter
  21. CPais

    CPais Rookie

    Sep 30, 2008
    43
    CA
    The OP is not talking about carbon buildup on his intake valves. The dealer is referring to carbon build up on the flaps inside his intake manifold. This does not make much sense to me.

    How does carbon build up end up in the intake manifold???? This sounds like a line of BS to me. The only thing going through the intake manifold is air.

    Something is very fishy here and the dealers statement makes no sense at all.
     
  22. metaldriver

    metaldriver Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2015
    631
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Andy Vecsey
    This sounds like a line of BS to me.

    It is not.

    The only thing going through the intake manifold is air.

    Not true.

    Something is very fishy here and the dealer's statement makes no sense at all.

    Yes it does.

    An offending contributor to carbon accumulation on the “back side” of the intake valves, is the crankcase vent which is piped into the intake system to control fugitive emissions. Air is not the only medium flowing through the intake runners, because vapors from the emission system are mixed in as well. Fuel injectors that leak, allow gasoline into the crankcase, seeping past the piston rings via gravity. The vapor in the crankcase is sucked into the secondary evaporation system, where it is introduced into the intake runners, thus the “back side” of the intake valves. Exacerbated by combustion heat, over time, the result is the hardened carbon build-up.
     
  23. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Very enlightening Andy, thank you.

    An ignorant man's question, if you'll indulge me: if direct gasoline injection favors carbon build-up, isn't the phenomenon/problem likely to be exacerbated/even bigger in turbocharged engines, due to burnt air (not all, but some) being redirected to the intake again?

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  24. dud

    dud Karting

    Apr 30, 2016
    201
    Boston
    I am sure this is BS in some way or another. It is so far in BS that you can't really tell what is going on.

    Carbon buildup on the valves is a problem, at least a potential one, on all direct injection engines. Cleanup is fairly routing. Expensive to access but no drama and no parts. In any case, it should not appear anywhere else.

    My bet is that they broke the part(s) when randomly poking around the engine to fix the CEL. Now that want you to pay for new parts.

    Did you read an error code for the CEL?
     
  25. metaldriver

    metaldriver Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2015
    631
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Andy Vecsey
    The only experience I have with a turbocharged engine is with BMW. They also succumb to carbon build-up on the intake valves, but I'm not certain if it is because of the turbocharger, per se, or because of direct port injection.

    We all know the purpose of the aftercooler (some call it the intercooler) is to cool the pressurized air as it exits the turbocharger before flowing into the engine. However, not all air-cooled heat exchangers operate at 100% thermodynamic efficiency, meaning the air intake temperature of a turbocharged car will be hotter than its naturally aspirated sibling. Intuitively, the carbon accumulation on the intake valves in a turbocharged (and supercharged) engine could be more than that of the same naturally aspirated engine.
     

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