BICYCLES

I guess you don't know enough about me. Being rational is not one of my deficits because if anything, people generally find me the opposite. I am a research scientist by training so I am very methodical and meticulous. However, my background also trained me to take unconventional views and not everyone understands those.

It's good that you have had no problems with your Di2 but other people do and did have problems with their Di2 as well as their EPS systems. As I tried to illustrate in my earlier post, everything's fine unless you are one of the unfortunates.

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As for your asking whether my fears stem from "actual experience", I think you missed my point. I want to avoid the experience (period), not to avoid REPEATING it. By the time I have experienced it, I would already own the wretched equipment and would have to deal with it. I want to use equipment that does not have this sort of downside risk attached to it. My bikes already work well with mechanical shifters and I am familiar with how to service them. The only bike I own that might benefit from electronic shifting is my TT bike where an extra set of shifters on the basebar would help when I hit an uphill with varying grades that require me to change gears while on the basebar.

I only broke a spoke once, many years ago and it was not incapacitating. I only had to increase the brakepad clearance by turning the lever on the brake arm on the (older version) SR brakes. The same control is located on the brake lever of newer SR brakes. As for flats, I always have my phone with me, carry a spare and a pump under my saddle.

As sherp23 alluded, some older frames like my Dogma 2, are internal mechanical cable routing only. If I want EPS or Di2 I would have to drill new holes. Not advisable. Wireless shifters would be perfect, once they are sorted out. IMO, a proper high performance (expensive) bike should consist of consummately well-integrated components. Current solutions are not well-integrated and the problems that ensue fall on the shoulders of the riders, who really just want to ride, not waste time fixing their equipment. Suppliers sometimes get in trouble because their business model became dependent on high growth rates and thus needed their customers to keep buying, perhaps replace their old gear (how frequently do people throw out perfectly good $12-$15k bikes and wheelsets? Never?). I also have a professional background in product marketing so I know how some corporate mindsets work.

Sometimes suppliers will throw half-baked new stuff on the market, hoping people fall for them - it was the same with disc brakes for regular road bikes. The equipment and bike frame makers wanted to sell enough of these half-baked rather useless "upgrades" so they could eliminate rim-brake systems by slowly reducing supply of rim-brakes, framesets that use rim-brakes and wheels that only work with rim-brakes. Pretty soon, people would have no choice but to buy complete new bikes, plus new wheelsets some of which can cost $5-10k or more each.

 

FWIW, I have both a SRAM RED eTap bike and a Di2 bike. Both frames are Pinarellos. I've had zero problems in 10k miles on the Di2, and zero problems with the eTap in the first 1500 miles since I built it a few months ago.

I'm a rank amateur, so I certainly don't push these systems to the brink. I do however ride one of the two whips nearly every single day. Zero issues, and never a dead battery. From a riding preference, I like the eTap much better. The cockpit is super clean, the shifting is crisp (enough), and the SRAM methodology of using only two buttons, compared to the Shimano 4-button system is far more intuitive.

Just my 2-cents.

 

4th_gear, I am not going to quote your entire post - too long

I think you missed the point: As I stated earlier, almost any product will have failures, and relying on Google as you do is bound to uncover some failures, regardless of how infrequent or good a product. Relying so heavily on Google to form your opinion, your fear of the product may become irrational - regardless of how rational you otherwise view yourself.

Just like 3-pedal manual shifting can be more involved and rewarding than F1, PDK, DCT, etc, I can see that some may prefer the feel of an older bike and mechanical shifting - nothing wrong with that. However, without any experience, to claim that mechanical shifting is more robust, less failure prone, and that electronic shifting is immature, providing Google search results as source is a stretch IMO.

You really should try electronic shifting. If you are a scientist, once you have gotten some experience with it, I think you will appreciate the benefits compared to mechanical shifting.

 

Thanks for your 2¢ Daniel.

The eTAP idea is the right direction. It eliminates many of the integration criticisms I have with the Di2 and EPS systems. I think their battery system is of better design than those on the Di2 and EPS. I also like the eTAP Blips and how well they integrate with the Zipp Vuka aero bars. This system looks promising with my TT bike. I am due for an aerobar fix anyway as the dealer had supplied a non-UCI compliant aerobar.

Unfortunately we're deep into Winter conditions here right now. It's very white and slippery outside. My TT bike won't see asphalt for another 6 months but I can use the down time to study up on eTap, its compatibility with my TT bikes's drivetrain, brakes and explore an eTAP set up.

 

Jes, it's not because I prefer manual shifting.

While electronic systems all minimize the tuning and adjustments that many riders don't want to deal with on mechanical shifters, the wiring and battery designs of the older systems like Di2 and EPS are simply unnecessary complications and potential problems for me. That's why I would prefer mechanical shifters that already work well on my bikes, because those mechanical systems have benefited from many, many years of refinement. OTOH, Di2 and EPS represent the 1st generation of electronic shifters.

If you read enough of my posts, you will know I don't buy 1st MY cars. The wired electronic shifter architecture of Di2 and EPS systems are essentially first stabs at electronic shifting and are far from being properly integrated designs. I work on my own bikes and I don't want to be a guinea pig for new bike problems.

You must have also missed the part where I said "... eTAP, ... wireless controls would be a very meaningful improvement, once they are perfected..." when sherpa23 mentioned being interested to try SRAM wireless shifters. I also said "...I'd also be interested to try a set of gen2 SRAM RED eTAP if they fit my TT bike...".

Have a look at the wireless systems like SRAM RED eTAP and the new FSA WE.

 

New Fulcums (Racing Zero) arrived last night. Test ride tomorrow!

 

You will love them. IMO, Campy (Fulcrum) absolutely makes the best bearings. I have a set of Bullet Ultras on my aero bike and they are crazy fast. The RZ are also so amazingly light!!!

 

Crap weather all weekend. No outdoor ride on them yet, so I've simply been on the rollers. Impossible to tell anything at this point, except that they look cool.

(And let's be honest, that's half the game, right?)

 

True. So which RZ model did you get? FWIW, I also get jollies spinning them, get tired waiting for them to finally roll to a stop.

I'm on my KICKR today, trying to trim off some "holiday excess", have my legs OK enough to go for the odd visit to the track. Oh brother.

 

Mine are the entry-level alloy clinchers. I have a friend who just got the Fulcrum Racing Nite's (black braking track) and while they're really cool looking, I have doubts about whether the black will stay intact for a whole season. Between these and my HED Ardennes, I think I'm tapped out on my wheel budget for awhile. I do love how quiet they spin. No clicking, no noise. Me like!

(p.s. My 11-year old son is on Zwift at the moment... and with 2,500 others riding Watopia right now, I can tell lots of folks got new trainers -- and New Year's Resolutions -- over the holiday).
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I have no experience with them but the HEDs look decent, albeit of a slightly older design. I agree about the Nites; there's also a carbon version almost 200 gm lighter but at 2x the price. Yikes!

Ah, the New Year... well, it looks like your 11-year-old is off to a great start. Gotta catch them while they're still young!

 

I'm thinking of ordering a Trek Project One Domane bike. The price difference between the bike equipped with 6870 Di2 versus the e-tap is $2150.

It looks to me (from my online research) like I can buy the entire SRAM e-tap system for $2000. Is that correct?

So I am considering ordering it with the Di2. If I am not happy, I can always swap it out for the e-tap, no?

Does the frame come from the factory with less holes when you order the bike with e-tap?

Thanks!

e

 

Frames are either made for internal wiring, or external cable. To my knowledge, they do not have more or less holes available within a frame selection. I don't know of anything built exclusively for a wireless groupset, because you'd still need some holes from brake cables. When I switched one of my bikes from Di2 to eTap, I simply got some rubber plugs from Pinarello that closed off the unused holes in my frame. Some of those plugs were crappy quality (imagine that!), so I used moldable Sugru to make my own.

Start with Di2, and I'll bet you're over the moon with happiness. My first Di2 configuration (I went through two setups) had an external battery which was somewhat ugly. When I switched to an internal seatpost battery, it was awesome. I'd guess all the Domane One builds have provision for internal battery.

 

Daniel, how do you like eTap compared to Di2? I have always used Dura Ace and then Di2 for electronic shifting, but am considering building a new bike and trying eTap. Though, I read reviews that the shifting of latest Dura Ace Di2 still sets the standard, so leaning towards Di2 again...

 

Di2 shifts are faster, but the more I ride my eTap bike, the more I enjoy the 'single button' approach to shifting (right button for smaller cogs, left button for bigger cogs... both buttons together for front ring). Even though I've never run out of battery on either system, I think the eTap idea with interchangeable batteries is smarter. And, as a weight weenie, I like the idea no shift cables and eliminating the heavy internal seat-post battery.

My Di2 bike is more for climbing... 52-36 SRAM Red in the front, 11-32 Ultegra in the back with a big arse long cage!

The eTap bike is just a Tuesday/Thursday thing with 52-36 SRAM Red in the front and 11-28 SRAM in the back.

On the downside, the standard SRAM Red brakes that came with my groupset suck compared to basic Ultegra 6800 calipers. I bet the difference to DA is even more pronounced. The SRAM brakes just feel mushy, and I've mixed up lots of pad choices and three different wheelsets all with the same unsatisfactory results.

STILL, even with its slightly slower shifts, I enjoy the eTap. light, intuitive, super-duper easy to install, upgradable, clean cockpit, etc.

 

Thx for the comparison of your experience with the two systems!

 

Thanks for the additional information. I went to the bike shop to pick up some new hoods for my Sram set-up. While there I demo'd the Di2 and loved it. I didn't mind the dual selectors at all and I think I prefer them. Could not believed the speed and certainty of the shifting. Pure enjoyment.

 

Have you tried Campy brake pads on the SRAM? If it's the Fulcrum aluminium rims you have on the bike then Campy pads would be the natural choice as Fulcrums are Campy. I've never found Campy brakes inadequate.

If the rims tracks are carbon, Campy red carbon pads are actually preferred by many Pro Tour riders and are even used in lieu of Shimano pads on Shimano brakesets.

 

Yes, AL rims. Never even thought to try Campy... but thanks to your suggestion I've just bought a set on-line. Hope they work! I was starting to price out replacement calipers, which I *really* don't have the money for.

 

Despite being a neophyte I think you've really been remarkably quick on the uptake and resourceful. I hope the pads work out for you. It would be a shame to have to buy new brakes.

 

For longer rides; multiple day events.
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Very nice. Good to see these commemorative items actually in use. I've only seen them in display cases before.

 

The 80th anniversary wheelset is still the fastest, smoothest I've ever ridden--by far. They put some magic in that particular design.


wiggle.com | Campagnolo Bora Ultra Two 80th Anniversary Tubular Wheelset | Road Race Wheels

Re post above on eTap--I loaned my set back to the shop from where I purchased it for build up on a display bike. The front shifts are wicked fast but the rear slower than DA or SR mechanical; that was the deal breaker. The etap shifters are a beautiful shape even for someone inclined, as I am, to dismiss the look of SRAM stuff (have you seen the brakes...really, you didn't need to touch those at all from the 2010ish look?)

 

Very nice, Im looking at the c60 with the new Dura Ace right now.

How do you like it? More pics please.

I currently have a c50 with carbon S Record on it.