VW "LOOKING" at F1 with Liberty in charge going forward into 2021

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Again. Cars in 2010 where faster. Barcelona 2010 (same layout, comparable weather) 1.19.9 in qualifying vs 1.22. 2011, on Pirelli's...once again comparable temperatures, now less aero...1.20.9.

Why where cars faster on tracks like Malaysia last year? Simple...resurfaced corners (or in Malaysia's case the entire track, changed camber to some corners etc).

Granted, top speed is higher and it better be with an extra 250 hp. It's marginally more than what they did with the V10...in fact with the V10 the week after the 2004 (?) GP Schumacher topped 381kph. And that's without DRS and such nonsense! THAT'S impressive!

The big aero change was in 2009 when they did away with lots of ''on-body'' elements. In 2014 they slightly reduced front wing width. In those years in between not much except for banning of the things you mentioned earlier such as F duct and blown diffuser.

Just look at the current front wing VS the 2010 one even. This one is hugely more developed, with over 30 elements!

Again, with the V10s and those regulations, cars where able to run closer. Again, not much overtaking but the overtakes that did happen, where fantastic. Now rarely are overtakes memorable as 9/10 times they're because of a ****ing flap that opens and drafting by...

Elements of the wings need to go, front wing size reduced to much smaller (<1200mm) and proper venturi tunnels re-introduced. Reduce the cars mechanical grip and increase the power. THEN you'll see racing. THEN you'll stop many more people moaning about the sound. One of the reasons many moan about it now is because the racing has been at it's worst since most can remember, and we're coming of a 20+ year era when they sounded great.

It doesn't take a genius to sort F1 out.

Oh and as for the guys actually ''driving'' at the moment? Tosh. Utter Tosh. Standard message after finishing a race these days is ''well managed''. They're managing the car, not driving it. We see many drivers now saying the cars are too easy to drive vs the pre 2014 cars.

 

wings
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Matra won after BRM, I'm talking last 50 years. I can only think of Matra and Mugen Honda in the last 50 years and only Matra won a WCC in '69, just barely within the last 50 years. If you want to call the '60's the golden era I'm with you, but that was limited to no aero on bias ply tires with 400-500 hp. Don't think there's any way that happens again.

Besides, it's not like BRM was small, wasn't it owned by the Owen corp when it was successful which was a fairly large conglomeration at the time?

Ford paid the bills and lend engineering talent, that's what manufacturers bring even if they don't launch their own effort...

 

You are looking with rose colored glasses, the v10's were not able to run close to each other and were processions with almost no passing at all. It was all done in the pits, one of the reasons they banned refueling to force some on track passing and it still didn't work very well.

I still loved that era, just as I love the current era. I appreciate it for what it is and for moving forward. I don't think either are the golden era, but you're making the v10 era out to be something it wasn't. The v8 era between the v10's and turbo 6's may be my least favorite.

 

So all those races I watched with cars driving behind each other must've been my imagination.

I've repeatedly said in this thread that things where not all right with the V10 era.

The gap of following has only increased and grown even larger because of the extra aero and the pirelli's destroying themselves after a handful of laps of close following.

The latter stages of V8 era was indeed not enjoyable, even less so if you weren't a Vettel fan.

 

Fwiw, qualifying was faster in Australia, Italy, Monaco, Canada, Silverstone, Singapore, Japan and Abu Dhabi in 2016 vs 2010.

That ignores Malaysia, Brazil (both wet in 2010) and Bahrain (longer layout in 2010).

Abu Dhabi was the last race in both seasons, so had the most developed cars. The 2016 cars were 1.4 seconds faster in qualifying than the 2010 cars. They are, without a doubt, faster than the 2010 cars over one lap despite worse tires and less downforce.

The 2016 cars were hitting 227mph at Monza (234mph at Baku), down only 4mph to the v10's at Monza and faster than the v8's.

 

You must have been watching something different. I still remember Alonso shaking his fist in his Renault because even in a tow behind the BMW he couldn't get close enough to pass. There was almost no passing in the v10 era as they couldn't get close to each other.

 

Yes Matra was attributed the 1969 WCC but it was a Matra-Cosworth that won it !
It wasn't a factory car either.

Ken Tyrrell's small independent outfit entered a Matra chassis with a Cosworth engine driven by Jackie Stewart that year.

Stewart didn't want to have the V12 Matra at the back of his car for the following year, so Matra refused to supply another chassis!! Typical French ...

Ken Tyrrell went on to buy a MARCH chassis for 1970 as a stop gap, but recruited Derek Gardner to design his own car for the following year.

To my knowledge, the Matra V12 never won a GP, and the best placing was a 2nd place.

Yes, the 60s and early 70s were the golden era: small independent teams, less regulations, hardly any aero, threaded tyres, no slicks, no refueling and cars very spectacular to watch with much oversteer. The drivers were no pin-up stars and the public could walk through the paddock and share a cigarette or a beer with mechanics and some drivers too!

The downside was that racing was dangerous in those days, and there were several casualties every year.

Those were the days when sex was safe, but motor racing dangerous; now it's the other way around.

 

BRM was never a very well financed team.

Alfred Owen was very parsimonious with his money.

 

via Formula One Overtaking Database | Clip The Apex
I also remember those years with horribly boring processions from start to finish.

I have no means of verifying the information but that is what I have in memory, too. Late 90's and early 2000's were thrilling to me because of the Schumacher - Hakkinen competition and then the golden Schumacher years. 2011 saw the introduction of DRS and Pirelli tyres.
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Ah, I misremembered. I guess the Matra v12 just sounded good . At least the Mugen Honda won a couple of races. Though it does reinforce the fact that manufacturers are necessary, at least on the power plant side. '67 is my favorite year, last year before wings and sponsors. What I wouldn't give for a '67 48 valve 312F1.

However, the racing would somewhat boring to watch these days compared to what we're used to. Half the field blew up, half of the rest were usually limping at the end, Ferrari sometimes didn't show up because he was mad at somebody, and some races were won by a lap or two (usually when Clark's Lotus didn't blow up), with a casualty thrown in every couple of races. But, they sounded good and looked good and were fun to watch being driven. And you'd get the odd race like Monza where 3 cars finished within a few tenths. I look back fondly and like watching videos of it, but wouldn't go back to that, they're antiques now and road cars have vastly higher performance with vastly better safety and reliability.

 

Aus: some new surface
Italy: New surface, straights much beneficial to 250hp advantage
Monaco: New surface, new kerbs allowing much faster laps
Canada: resurfaced and same as Monza
Silverstone: IIRC a couple of corners got resurfaced, unsure
Singapore: resurfaced, removed chicane
Japan: resurfaced
Abu Dhabi: Not sure if any changes, too new I think. huge straights and fast flowing corners a huge beneficiary to cars with much power.

You claimed V6 faster than V10, but now try to prove your argument with cars that are already 250hp down on V10's.

Again, I seriously doubt the cars have less downforce than the 2010 cars. Front wings may be 15cm shorter but have far more development into them.

Yep. 4mph faster than the V10, but with assistance of DRS. And 250hp more than the V8.

 

Yep, and I bet 6 or 7 of those passes per race in the mid 2000's were at the start, meaning you might get 3 good passes in an actual race, and usually not at the front. Still exciting but for very different reasons.

 

BMW's always where one of the more powerful cars in the V10 era. Renault wasn't known for their hp.

 

Nope:

 

I was comparing to the cars with highest downforce, underlining the power improvement the new PU's have vs. the v8's. They're vastly more powerful, use way less fuel and create a faster car overall despite less downforce and worse tires. Ie better in every single way that matters (except sound). But some seem to think that the sound is all that matters, which I find bizarre in a racing motor whose purpose is to go fast.

I think the v10's had more downforce than the current cars as they had rear wings almost twice as wide, double element front wings (instead of single with a bunch of doodads on the ends), less regulated floors and diffusers so more efficiency (ie less drag to go along with the downforce) leading to good top speeds. However, that ended up making the racing crap because the cars couldn't get close to each other, and I think we're in for more of that this year. I still loved the v10 era for the fact that they were exceeding 20k rpm and 1000 hp from a 3 liter na motor, but that's old technology now. At the time it was awesome, but they get the same power from a 1.6 turbo using half the fuel that last over 10x as long. Now it's rare for an engine to blow, back then it was a regular occurrence and they swapped them out every session.

 

Ah, so 10 passes per race over 20 cars. Not very much racing back then. They were processions which is why they kept changing the aero rules, particularly the rear wing. Look how low and wide the rear wings were for the v10's, nobody could get close due to the turbulence.

 

Back in the V10 era the rear wings where 1000mm wide compared to 800 of today. The floors where indeed already regulated back then, many ''slots'' in the floor having to be covered up already. Now the floors are longer, which produces more downforce.

I've a reasonable understanding of these wings. The wings (especially front) produced far less downforce back in the V10 era and even early 2010's. V10 era they where smaller, 1450mm compared to 1650mm today (1800mm 2010). As you say...2 elements back then. Now over 30! Every single element has a job to do, steer the air exactly where it needs to go, where they need the downforce. This is the reason they can't follow at all today, because the closer they get to the car in front, the more downforce they lose as they drive into the disturbed air, suddenly when all that fresh air they had before and all the elements sorting out nicely where everything needed to go, is not available anymore. The more elements, the bigger this problem. This means relying on tires, which is why we tend to see cars sometimes follow close for a few laps, but they're normally on newer tires. If they can't get passed, the tires overheat by working too hard, and getting the Pirelli's back to normal temp takes a while and basically already ruined their efficiency.

Take a classic race in the V10 era for example, Schumacher out of position in 2005 at Imola, made some wonderful overtakes but eventually got stuck behind Jenson Button. Strategy just missed out for Ferrari and he came out behind Alonso, and some 20+ laps chasing Alonso, on his tail until the finish...now he didn't win the race, but he was within .5 of a second Alonso, trying to overtake, Alonso blocking. It was fantastic to see. Imagine if he had DRS. It'd be another pointless, easy, pass, no memorable. And remember why it was epic...fewer elements allowing closer racing.

The fix isn't to go back to 2004 aero regulations as they also prohibited racing somewhat. It isn't to fit a V10 and hope for the best.

It's to get rid of all these elements. Fit smaller front wings (no larger than 1200mm) and smaller, lower, rear wings. Their shape can be free, basically allow a gurney flap for downforce adjustment in the pit. Fit venturi tunnels in the floor, there's not much that can be done with these in ways of cheating. Cars get clean air even when right on someones gearbox, as barely any can get disturbed as that happens higher in the air.

That's how you fix one problem, and the biggest one at that.

You'll still get the moans about the sound being rubbish, and having been to recent races...us moaners ARE right. GP2 produces far better sound. The V6 is too expensive, power differences are abnormally big...and good god do they sound terrible! It's not that they're quiet (though they are)...the sound is just nasty. They sound bad. It's not an enjoyable sound. If it was an enjoyable sound, people would simply not complain.

And before the argument comes up that F1 should be expensive, and that small teams with no money shouldn't roll with the big boys if they can't afford it (that sure was my comment a few years ago!), it simply isn't feasible. Big manufacturers aren't interested in pumping 100s of millions in a sport without any guarantee of success. Small teams already can't function, they're running on fumes. Sponsors aren't interested at the moment as the racing is not exciting, and viewers stop watching because the racing is not exciting, and like it or not, but millions are complaining about the sound being rubbish (this should tell the V6 advocates something...).

When you alienate big manufacturers by cost, and alienate small teams because of cost...what are you soon left with? Give in to the big manufacturers, unlikely more will join, and certainly the smaller teams will all drop out.

 

I could not remember my Bugatti history on the fly... but one of his sons was involved after WWII ... While I know VW Bugatti has nothing to do with the family, I love that the name is not consigned to history any more. I think its total appropriate for VW to have its SUPER CAR listed under the Bugatti name. its totally appropriate. I think of all the VW brands Bugatti has the deepest Racing history- I know it was in the 20's and 30's but the Type 35 & its variants were THE cars to beat in the day... I'd love to see the name back in F-1.

While Audi's Auto Union would make sense - I think this is too politically polluted with the NAZI's ... Auto Union is still a dormant brand owned by VW / Audi... but doubtful if it would ever be used. Lamborghini - yep, was in F-1 - and did nothing. Bentley - I think is more a LeMans team vs. F-1. lastly Porsche ... had its own team once in F-1 - won a single race with Gurney ... and has never had the best of luck with single seater cars... not sure why.. I know if they really spent the money they would be competitive but it has never been something the Family wanted to do under the Porsche name.

Remember - VW is owned basically by the Porsche family and Piech family and part of the German state.... I don't see how they will spend $$ in F-1 when they are losing Billions on the emissions issues...

 

in the 50's, 60s and 70's Ferrari was pretty much still a "small team" they just happened to have an owner who also made road cars. by comparison Ferrari in the 70's while they had more resources - they did not seem as professional as the brit teams. ... the fact that they survived is down to Mr. Ferrari & Fiat pumping money in & Bernie needed the name .