Manual 360 Modena won't rev in neutral...

I have been experiencing a weird problem with my Ferrari 360 Modena manual gearbox.
When I drive the car, when I shift to neutral and coast the car, if I press the gas pedal the engine initially won't rev, but there will be small explosions in the exhaust, like unburnt fuel, and then it will rev.. very weird and annoying problem especially when trying to rev match a downshift...

Here are some videos of the problem "manual 360 won't rev when rolling" that I took today... (standard OEM exhaust)

First is the startup : Engine Starts with Strong Idle... At some point (0:22) the exhaust valves close and there is some rattle (no problem here, just a little annoying) and continues with healthy idle...

https://youtu.be/R8PtJm4ci6k

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Next is the idle : As the engine continues to idle, the idle sound appears to have breaks, work intermittently... Instead of normal vrooooooooooooo , it appears to be vroo vroo vroo vroo ... As if one side or both sides of the V8 are not working properly. Open or closed exhaust valves do not change this intermittent problem...

https://youtu.be/dopw1k7j5yQ

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And now the problem : As I start to drive the car in 1st gear, I put neutral (0:12) and as I coast I rev the engine... You can see the RPM not rising immediately (lagging) and there are some exhaust explosions (seems like unburnt fuel in the exhaust)... Very strange and annoying, especially if you are downshifting and want to double declutch / rev match...

https://youtu.be/AAHE8UW9Owk

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The car is rolling in neutral, as I try to floor the engine and rev it, again there are exhaust explosions and popping...

https://youtu.be/Q3bZyevfuas

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Same problem again, car rolling in neutral, exhaust popping (these are not the exhaust valves opening) when trying to rev the engine...

https://youtu.be/d_u3dSJtIgI

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I have done the following things : fixed timing 100% with degree wheel and dial indicators based on WSM. Changed intake manifold gaskets. Changed MAFs. Changed Oxygen sensors. Changed ignition coils and spark plugs. Measured fuel pressure ok. Checked cylinder compression ok. Now what?

 

There is a whole thread on this issue. I will try to find it. The owner ended up selling the car after spending a fortune on it.

 

Got it:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/527602-360-spider-wont-rev-when-rolling.html

 

Yes, I read through this thread and there appears to be a switch on the clutch pedal that changes the fuel mapping and ignition based on the position of the pedal.

If depressed, it requires less load and maybe the fueling / ignition changes...

However, it is unclear what I should try to do to fix my problem.

should I replace the sensor hoping that it will fix the problem ??

If yes, part number please ?

Thanks !

 

Something quick and simple to try would be to switch off the battery for 15 minutes, then switch it back on, if you have a code reader, clear all errors on both banks. then start the engine and let it idle for 10 minutes without touching the throttle. This will re-synch the throttles and relearn the idle parameters.

 

Thanks for the advice, but this has been done already with no success... The weird thing is that when the car is stationary and I rev the engine, there is no problem... If the car is rolling and I put neutral and rev the engine, I get the exhaust explosions and hesitation to rev... Very weird !!!

 

Mine is sound asleep till spring.
I can't wait to see if does the same foolishness or not

 

I don't have a fix but I have a few observations based on the long story I referenced.

It could be a sensor but based on a lot of experience with ECUs and the lack of a sensor code, it would seem to be a programming fault in the ECU. The ECU knows that the car is not in gear and it knows the throttle and car is moving. Based on that, it seems to significantly retard the timing. That by itself is not unusual for performance cars given today's emission requirements. That said, the extent of retarding the ignition seems severe causing the performance issues you cite. It also seems to be unique to 360 gated cars.

What would be interesting is to do a poll of 360 owners (F1 and Gated) to see if they also experience the same issues. If they do....then a programming update to the ECU is the only way this gets solved. If it is a small population that has the problem....then it is more likely to be a sensor issue.

 

I ordered the Crankshaft Position Sensor and I will be installing it next time I visit my mechanic...

ECU is a little expensive to buy without being certain that it will fix the problem.

Furthermore, I am not sure how exactly it works with master-slave ECU in order to borrow maybe a set of ECUs from another car and check... Can someone explain if these are interchangable between 360 Modenas and if I need to find manual 360 modena ECU and if the year of build also matters... Thanks !

 

One thing I forgot to mention is that for almost 2 years before my problems started, I used my car once every two weeks. I was afraid my car battery would go down, so after each drive I would shut it off from the switch (leaving the driver window 1 inch down) and restart the battery the next time I would drive the car. I didn't know about the learning procedure for the ECU, but I would just warm up the car and drive it slowly until oil was 70 degrees C. No problems whatsoever.

After my problems started, I stopped doing this because I was informed that it is not good to erase the data each time. do you think this could have caused some permanent damage to one or both ECU ?? No Check Engine Light whatsoever however...

 

I don't believe that switching the battery off has anything to do with this problem. It certainly would go thru a learning sequence but that by itself doesn't cause the engine to retard while coasting and blipping the throttle. It does reset the codes but this problem doesn't appear to throw a code.

For clarity....has the car always done this or is this new behavior? The other owner had this problem but I believe he bought his car used.

 

Every time the battery is switched back on you should do the throttle self learn. Another thing I would try is swapping the ecus side to side. One is a master and the other is the slave based on its position. I've seen cars that would not even start and after swapping ecus, the car ran and had no problem. Along the same lines, you could have a dealer reflash the software on both. I've seen that solve some strange problems. I think over time ecu software can become corrupted mostly bc of low battery voltage events.

 

I car ran perfectly up until December 2011. I had a timing belt change at the dealer and everything was wrong afterward... I took my car back 3 times but they could not fix it. They have obviously messed up the timing. (the car ran very quiet and seemed to be low on power). I took car car to an independent and he fixed 100% the timing with degree wheel and dial gauges. The problem with the hesitation to rev while coasting initially was very small (I didn't pay much attention) but has evolved into a bigger (more often) problem...

 

It's the throttle butterflies that actually control revving. I'd first clean the butterflies and maybe you need to replace. Popping in the exhaust is running rich. You step on the accelerator, you get acceleration enrichment but butterflies don't open equals rich mixture and popping.

 

Thanks I will check this !! Your suggestion makes sense !
I also forgot to mention one incident that took place 2 years ago :

I overfilled oil at a gas station by mistake and as I was driving the intake manifold blew off... (intake butterflies disconnected). My mechanic cleaned very well excess oil and my car was working normally... Well almost, there was some minor popping in the exhaust, which was deteriorated a lot over the recent weeks... So, maybe one / both MAF (which were new) got messed up with oil. Good thing I have the original ones, which I replaced when I had timing problems...

Things get complicated when more than one problems exist :

2011 --> Bad timing due to dealer mistake at timing belt change
2012 Timing fixed to 90% (using camshaft marks, rather than degree wheel and dial gauges)
2013 MAF Meters, Oxygen Sensors, spark plugs, intake manifold gaskets changed
2014 --> Overfill of engine oil causing intake butterflies to disconnect, cleaned back to normal
2015 Timing fixed to 100% (using degree wheel and dial gauges) Hurray !!!
2016 Ignition coils changed , due to popping from exhaust , no difference

2017 MAYBE PUT BACK ORIGINAL MAF Meters in case MAFs were damaged from 2014 oil overfill ??

 

I would totally try this. I also wonder if when you turn the key to the "ON" position but don't start it, and then mash on the throttle if it actuates the butterfly valves... that might be a way to test actuation of the throttle bodies. Not sure if the ECU prevents this though..

 

Why is it I feel that the original problem is the middle of the story not the beginning?

So the original concern that this was related to cam timing in 2011 seems to have ruled itself out because it ran okay after that. 2013 seems interesting because a number of parts were replaced. That is.... until it BLEW THE INTAKE MANIFOLD OFF THE ENGINE in 2014.

That incident alone could have released an entire family of gremlins into the engine bay. Up to that part of the story, I thought there may be a chance of finding what is causing the problem. Now, I'm not so sure.

If the problem you are having is the same as the other poster, there may be some hope to figuring out what sensor is sending the ECU data to retard the engine. That is what the other poster and his mechanics determined that caused the popping, backfiring and poor performance. I hope it is simple as the throttle position sensor but I doubt it. It is a combination of events that is causing this to occur. The ECU knows the car is moving....it knows it is in neutral and it knows you are hitting the throttle.

If it was my car, I would get it on a dyno and see what the engine is doing after you get it up to speed, coast and blip the throttle. That would be the fastest way to narrow down where to look. If the dyno shop has a run from a healthy 360.....that would be worth its weight in gold.

 

If it was a failing Throttle Body, wouldn't there be a Check Engine Light ?

In case it is one ECU failing, do I update the software (only at dealer ?) or do I need to replace ECU ? Also, what happens with Master-Slave ECU ? Are they interchangable ? What happens with immobilizer ? Sorry for my ignorance and many questions...

Tomorrow when I change MAFs and I will post the results...

 

Yes the ecus are interchangeable. The master has power on pin 88 (or something like that) and the slave has ground on that pin. The rh and lh wire harnesses determine this. So when the ecu recognizes that is a master or slave, they are each assigned specific tasks. If one ecu is having problems in one area, swapping them will give the other ecu a chance to perform that task. I've seen reflashing the ecus fix this as well.

The immobilizer imprints a permanent encrypted code into the rh ecu the first time they are powered up together. That is how the immobilizer allows the rh ecu to start the engine. The codes must match. The lh ecu just follows along and remains un-imprinted. If the ecus have never been swapped, and you need a new immobilizer module, then you must swap them so the lh ecu can become the imprinted master.

A new replacement ecu would be blank and need to be flashed with the correct software for your car anyway.

Clean MAFs and correctly synced throttles are crucial for these cars. If the oil is overfull, then the MAFs will be contaminated and fuel/air mixtures will be out of whack which causes a whole host of other problems. Also remember that at idle, the rh MAF is feeding the lh bank and the lh MAF is feeding the rh bank. So if you have an airflow error on bank 1, the issue is with the lh air intake.

EVERY time you change a component, (MAFs, o2 sensors, etc.) throttles need to be relearned and adaptive values reset.

 

Did you end up fixing the issue, mine started doing a similar thing yesterday?
It would not rev while the clutch was depressed and was very slow to accelerate in 2nd/3rd gears with no alarms.

 

Apparently, the problem was the timing !! My old mechanic who insisted he had fixed the timing correctly, was a little off, not enough to trigger cell, but off...

I found a new mechanic with experience with racing cars too, and he had a method to check and fix the timing of the Modena.

After he fixed it, most of the time the car works very well...

Sometimes, it will pop a little when cold, but not as much as before...

While troubleshooting, we tried a different set of throttle bodies (no difference) and checked also if the variable intake valve was working properly and not getting stuck (it was ok after all)

After fixing the timing, my new mechanic did point out that one of the 2 variators (mine is later car with new variator design) was getting stuck sometimes...

So the easy and cheap fix was to replace the actuator of the variator... He told me if this did not fix the problem, then we need to change the actual variator, which is difficult and expensive...

I am not 100% sure that the variator is working properly all of the time... this is why I believe sometimes there is some popping and hesitation, and the idle seems to fluctuate when I come to stop light...

Good luck with your car and let us all know if you find the cause !!

I bet it has to do with variators, if the problem started all of a sudden...

 

Great thanks for the feedback.

 

Hi MD355
I went through and checked connections from the thermocouples (the car was on a truck for 1500kms to get to me) followed the reset process from Aldous Voice and the car has been fine since. I've done around 250kms and it is working fine so I am hoping it was a loose or wet connection.

 

You mean the Vescovini boxes located under the rear black panels ?
These are the thermocouples control units that measure catalyst temperature and will trigger SLOW DOWN and cut fuel on each cylinder bank if temp exceeds normal. Right ?

 

Hi MD355, yes that is correct. CJC