The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thanks Rob!

 

I have a dumb question, and keep in mind I have had my own disagreements with Rob and F-Chat in the past, that seems pretty simple.

Given the world of possible legal issues one could deal with, if I was Rob, why would I do anything other than let this thread be and just simply monitor it for any type of abuse? Moving it to a "Recreation/Replica" just opens the door for all kinds oh headaches.

If Ferrari is not going to fight the car, that means Italy isn't going to fight it without Ferrari's support.

Ferrari seems to have a bigger lawyer budget than most people, including F-Chat, and who knows what Jim would view that fight as.

Simply put, this is unique story, and a special car (whether you want to be on this side or that), why can't we all agree to keep the fighting to the future details that may emerge?

I see all the reasons to claim it isn't something, but given how many other cars have been resurrected from humble pieces, where is the line?

Seeing the vintage pics of Tom Mead with "what doesn't exist" is enough to justify the debate.

Piper has remained quiet for his own reasons, and I imagine it is because he is on both sides of the equation.

Shawn

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachments/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/2356333d1486681344-one-only-0846-debate-thread-screen-shot-2017-02-09-5.01.41-pm.jpg
So going with that screenshot JG is perhaps saying that it was now he that was dumpster diving and recovered the chassis.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachments/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/2356333d1486681344-one-only-0846-debate-thread-screen-shot-2017-02-09-5.01.41-pm.jpg

 

Pipers wife (who apparently is quite a formidable lady) has spoken out to say the car is not 0846 so their views are actually on record. Plus in the Talacrest video about 0858 with Piper, the matter was also referenced to a degree. They sold it as a replica, it was purchased as a replica, they have no other obligations to become involved in any future debate if a subsequent owner seeks to deviate from that fact.

The latest claim it seems now is that 0846 was not scrapped after the Le Mans incident but rebuilt after that to the spec now seen in Jims car and then wrecked again and eventually scrapped by Ferrari.

This is the first time that's ever been claimed! and only after the period pics showed Jims car was not as per the last known spec of the original 0846, again wheres the evidence to support such? if that was the case Ferrari would be well aware of such matters and would no doubt welcome the car back into the fold?

 

It wasn't my intention to contribute any more to this thread but Mr Glickenhaus' latest claims are absolutely ridiculous. There is so much information in his latest replies on Facebook that is untrue. I am amazed at his gall.

For years he has stated that the engine in his car is a P4 engine. Now that I have proved with photographs that it is a 3 litre 312 F1 engine and that the real P3/4 0846 did not have adjustable bias on the brakes, as his car does, and real P4s do, along with the tube and master cylinder arrangement to support it, proving his chassis is built to P4, not P3 plans as he states, he has yet again changed his story to suit and states that Ferrari put a 3 litre engine in it and some tubes were modified so the engine could be lowered and pushed forward. Some of the tubes in the bulkhead on this replica chassis have been modified which was to make the 3 litre F1 engine fit the chassis that was originally built to fit a 4 litre engine, not for the reasons he states. Because of the different mounting positions of the 3 litre engine due to the shorter height of the cylinder block some tubes have been changed on the right hand side of the bulkhead as you look from the back of the bulkhead as the mounting point bolt holes on the chassis do not line up with the engine mounting bolt holes.

A tube has also been bent so that it clears the fuel pump as it is higher up on a 3 litre engine due to the shorter block and will not clear one of the tubes without a bent/manipulated tube in place. On the left hand side of the replica chassis bulkhead as you look from the back some of the original tubes have been left in place, BUT to allow the engine to fit a drop down bracket has been installed as the cylinder head mounting bolt hole does not line up with the chassis mounting point. The engine has not been lowered and pushed forward. There is no room to push it forward. Also Mr Glickenhaus is showing his ignorance as if you lower the engine and push it forward ALL the other mounting points have to be changed.

The way the engine is mounted in this chassis is structurally unsound and it compromises the strength of the chassis as the engine is designed to be part of the structure as a semi stressed member. All this talk of Ferrari modifying the chassis after Le Mans 1967 and tested at Mugello is nonsense. The chassis was scrapped after the Le Mans 1967 fire and sent to the Ferrari scrapyard. That is Ferrari's official word. It did not go to Mugello.

What is this talk of 512S wheels? The 512S didn't come out until 1969/70 so didn't even exist at the time of the alleged Mugello test where Mr Glickenhaus states that 0846 crashed again. The Ferrari factory did not sell any parts to Mr Glickenhaus either. There is an invoice from a Ferrari dealer for some P4 uprights with no mention of the chassis number 0846 or Mr Glickenhaus's name on it. That is no proof at all I am afraid.

The ASI are not qualified to certify this car as 0846. Their certification was also after the 2016 Targa Florio event so the car didn't get invited there on the strength of that. Ferrari did NOT confirm Mr Glickenhaus had actually taken the chassis and other parts out of the garbage bin and resurrected 0846. They said they shouldn't have been "IF THIS IS THE CASE." Big difference and is no confirmation whatsoever. They also did not confirm that the "glorious pieces" they referred to were those that make up Mr Glickenhaus's chassis.
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Bravo and welcome back sir. Thank you for posting and posting with such great information

 

"Don't mess with Texas."

 

Smile when you say that podner. [emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This thread is a prime example of Talmudic discussion.

The gist of it comes down to basically make outrageous claims and circular arguments until your opponent gives up do to complete frustration. Then you claim to win.

Dudes, Ferrari ain't going to sit in US banana courts arguing what piece of metal ended up in what junkyard 80 years ago because of internet babble. LOL!

Mr Glickenhaus should send his professional investigative team like he did to his Chinese investments to prove people on yahoo forums wrong! LOL!

Guys, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

In the sill and bottom of the side of the rear clam bodywork area Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 car was the same as a P4 when he received it from David Piper in the year 2000 and well before that. The bottom of the rear clam bodywork stepped up from the line of the top of the door sill and the chassis had the frame tubes which stepped up above the sill line in the rear clam area to support it.

This is something else which shows the chassis was built to P4 plans, NOT P3 plans as Mr Glickenhaus has been saying for years to prove his chassis was originally a P3 chassis to identify it as the real 0846 chassis. In about 2006 this area of the tubes and rear clam bodywork was modified by Mr Glickenhaus to look like the real 0846 and the top of the sill lines up with the bottom of the rear clam bodywork as it does on a P3, P3/412P, 412P and P3/P4 0846, but NOT when he received it in the year 2000 from David Piper and when this replica chassis was built. It was like a P4.

The picture that David Piper gave to Nathan Beehl of DP0003 when it had a P3 engine also proves this, as well as showing that it did not have the diagonal tube that reaches back from the forward side engine mount to the back of the chassis, which it would have had if the chassis was built to P3 plans. P4s do not have this diagonal tube as DP0003 does not. This is the Fat Lady has Sung picture, as Mr Glickenhaus referred to it, that he has stated for years proved without any shadow of a doubt that the chassis was built to P3 plans saying that it proved the opposite of what it was supposed to prove. It actually proved what David Piper said it proved: that the chassis was built to P4 plans. So, yes the Fat Lady did sing, but NOT for Mr Glickenhaus.

Please see the pictures attached which are of Glickenhaus DP0003, the real P3/P4 0846, P4 0856, P4 0858, 412P 0854 and another David Piper P4 replica (0900a) which was a sister car made at the same time as DP0003.
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^^ Another nail in the coffin.

I don't use Facebook or I would read with interest JG's comments you reference.

 

See his recent Facebook replies below.

Please can someone ask Mr Glickenhaus where on Ferrari's website did they publish, which means made available to the public and not in a private password protected part of the website only available to Mr Glickenhaus, that they agreed in writing not to challenge that he owned 1967 Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846.

......yet from the WSJ article JG was reported by AJ Baime to have said: "Ferrari itself will not confirm that this car is #0846, but I have registered the car as such, and many agree with my findings." [A Ferrari spokeswoman declined to comment.] Was this statement perhaps something that AJ Baime skilfully managed to extract from a reluctant Mr Glickenhaus as a highly competent journalist knowing the background to the car and Mr Glickenhaus's claims regarding it?

And Mr Glickenhaus on the 21st of July, 2016 posted in this thread that Ferrari had confirmed in writing that he has owned Ferrari P4 0846 since 2000 in a dispositive document. This does not agree with his reported statement to AJ Baime. Was his statement of 21st July, 2016 untrue?

How did Mr Glickenhaus agree with Ferrari that after Le Mans 1967 0846's original chassis was modified once again to lower and push its engine forward for better F/R balance....... when they never said this? Ferrari's official word is that because of extended damage detected, it's previous racing history and the fire damages suffered, 0846 was written off, definitively scrapped after Le Mans 1967 and had a sad conclusion. That 0846 was tested with 3 litre engine at Mugello, crashed and then scrapped is untrue.
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JG's words look pretty desperate to me who has followed this for just the last year or so.

 

It's like he had a windfall in sight and it was taken away. He is persisting in these small innuendos and little steps, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

I didn't like how he called Steve "The Troll" elsewhere. Just because he owns other cars and inherited his money from his father shouldn't give him the ability to mock.

Out of curiousity, I wonder what "legal proceeding" he is referencing. That could be something trivial.

 

The legal proceeding he references is something called estoppel by acquiescence whereby he states that you can inform somebody that you will legally claim something from them and they have 2 years to object with reasons why not. However if they fail to act or do not respond in that 2 year period they lose the right to object to that claim, or something like that.

Mr Glickenhaus claims to have exercised this right to claim the number 0846 from the Ferrari factory. However, when I asked him if he had proof of service of the legal papers on the Ferrari factory to claim this he did not respond.

 

Does Italian law recognize that or is it a common law principle?
If the latter, it may only be in the US.

But these clearly shows a determination to try to create a paper trail. I am not sure they would respond even if they believed it to be a replica.

 

I think it is a common law thing but I do not know its legal weight, how binding and enforceable it is or if it is recognised by Italian Law.

Is there a lawyer here who could clarify?

 

Below is an Official Ferrari 1966 Factory Blueprint of a 330 P3 which is further proof the wheelbase was 2400 mm and NOT 2412 mm as Mr Glickenhaus states along with the Official Ferrari Factory 1966 Notiziario Press Conference document for Ferrari 330 P3 also indicating 2400 mm wheelbase posted previously. First picture is a blow up of the second picture.

The only cars that had the 2412 mm wheelbase were the P3/412P and 412P cars that temporarily got the ZF 5DS gearbox which reverted to 2400 mm when the Ferrari 603R gearboxes were later installed. 0846 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed so wheelbase was never 2412 mm.

Mr Glickenhaus claims his chassis has a wheelbase of 2412 mm using its "vestigial P3 mounts" and P3 engine which, if the case, is additional proof along with the mountain of other proof his chassis is a replica.
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Random but are there any high res images of those blueprints? Would make for awesome wall art.

 

These were sold with an asking price of $5995 Canadian.
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When Ing. Forghieri said in his original reply to me that "Amon was hit by a FLYING WHEEL..." Mr Glickenhaus and his Glickophants laughed at this. What I think MF meant to convey was that Amon's car had a FLAPPING TYRE which burst open the fuel tanks and then caught fire. It was not a memory issue for MF, more a translation thing.

See video here between 19.04 and 1930. Pay attention to what Chris says at about 19.19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNLrO1DkfKs

It is extremely unlikely that any of the middle of the chassis of the real 0846 was usable as the fuel tanks were housed in the middle section. Ing. Forghieri said that as far as he could remember only the section in front of the dash board was possibly usable.

So, as none of the front, bulkhead, middle section and rear on Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis is the same as the real 0846, what of the chassis could possibly be in DP0003 that was in the real 0846???? How about NOTHING?

Plus a 3 litre F1 engine, replica gearbox, replica fuel tanks, replica clocks, replica dashboard, replica interior, replica wheels, replica body, fake 0846 chassis tag and possibly the modified tail from P4 0858 and not one single component from the 0846 car how can this replica justifiably be called Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846 in any way whatsoever?

 

Muirasv - that all sounds very convincing.

It's just so odd that DP won't simply say where the car he sold to JG came from? (Or did I miss that?)

Said differently, the mystery to me has been "what is it"? (Not so much "what is it not")

 

David has always said it IS a replica so no mystery there. He has also said the chassis was made by a competent chassis maker in Modena so no mystery where it was made. He says he can't remember who made it but it was Silvano Cantelli from Modena who made the Piper replica chassis including 0003.

David says Manicardi e Mesuri made the chassis of his P4 0900 who he also says made the original P4 chassis, but Vaccari are said by reliable sources to have made the original chassis for the P4 cars. Ing. Forghieri told me that as far as he could remember it was the factory itself that made the original chassis of 0846 and Vaccari modified it.

I can find no chassis maker called Manicardi e Mesuri in Modena. The only Manicardi that I know of is Amerigo Manicardi who was Ferrari's Sales Manager/Director in the '60s who is no longer with us. Could it be that Silvano Cantelli also made 0900? This is the mystery that David needs to clear up, if he can, or wants to.