Derek's 308 engine rebuild | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Derek's 308 engine rebuild

Discussion in '308/328' started by derekw, Oct 16, 2016.

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  1. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    #201 derekw, Mar 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I just measured the combustion chamber volume and dome volume to get a quick idea of my static CR. 348 crank is a 75mm stroke, bore is 81.25mm so swept vol is 398.5cc. Chamber is 42cc and piston dome-- measured with tape around the top, water, and subtract the water from a cylinder to get the net dome vol. of 9,3cc. My JE pistons have a lower compression height as they were originally made for a turbo build so with the head gasket I have another 1.8cc so a total combustion volume of 42-9.3+1.8=34.5cc which gives a static CR of 12.55:1 and with the Cat cams inlet closing at 70 degrees after BDC the dynamic CR will be 9.45 which is too high for pump gas (want to be under 8.5.) I need to have a net combustion chamber volume of about 39cc so will need to lose 4.5cc from the chamber and piston (or use shorter rods.)

    I ordered an adjustable reamer and will fit the pistons to the rods next week and do a test assembly since my calcs above were based on the numbers for std pistons and deck height in newto308's piston tips thread. Once I have the actual numbers for my motor I'll run the calcs again and decide what to do.
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  2. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    #202 derekw, Mar 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I lapped the valves and the seats show up nicely against the black nitride. Tomorrow I'll back cut to leave 1mm seats on the inlets and 1.5mm on the exhausts. I'll also smooth out the sharp edges on the outside of the seats. I'll spin the valves in my drill press and use a dremel tool to remove material where needed.
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  3. qedqeq

    qedqeq Formula Junior

    Apr 15, 2015
    384
    Hey, please keep up the posting.

    BTW, what was the mileage on the engine when this rebuild was required to be performed?

    Regards
     
  4. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    Helder, the car sat in a garage for 16 years plus it still had the sodium-filled exhaust valves. 58k kms, bores were near the limit and valve guides were past the limit. The crank was ok but I bought a 348 crank which needed grinding. There were also signs of coolant migration through the head gasket and past the manifold gaskets into the ports.
     
  5. qedqeq

    qedqeq Formula Junior

    Apr 15, 2015
    384
    Okay thank you, Derek.
     
  6. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    #206 derekw, Mar 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Back cutting was easier than I expected. I found the sandpaper tubes on my Dremel worked the best and did the sharp edges around the edge of the valves with a fine diamond file. One thing I noticed is my drill press chuck is not very concentric so I turned the valve in the chuck every 30 seconds and it took about two minutes per valve. Well worth the effort!
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  7. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2012
    17,275
    Gold Coast, Aust.
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    Patrick
    Very clever! I'd be worried about getting the accuracy with a wobbly old drill chuck and a hand held Dremel - you must have a keen eye! You weren't worried about creating hot spots?
     
  8. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    Patrick, I thought it would be hard to control and I might touch the seat and have to re-lap or toss the valve. It was actually quite easy as I used the slowest setting on the drill press, pressed lightly and let the sand drum follow the valve movement. There was very little heat since removal was slow-- when I rotated the valve in the chuck it was slightly warm but nothing that could affect 21-4N. I blended the back of the head around into the seat for a smooth, undisturbed flow. Cheers derek

    Ps I think I may owe you a few beers unless I kick it into a higher gear! The reluctance to eat my own words has been a strong motivator so I probably owe you a beer or three anyway.
     
  9. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2012
    17,275
    Gold Coast, Aust.
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    Patrick
    Actually, Derek, you seem to be ripping through it from what I can see, so your beers might be safe! But I do like a free beer, so don't forget to do the electrics, interior, and suspension... :)
     
  10. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
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    Derek W
    #210 derekw, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I managed to port one head today and match the manifold. It is slower and takes longer with the dremel, not as much power as a die grinder but my little compressor is too small and too noisy for the basement. I just smoothed all the transitions and widened the short side radius a bit. I also blended the inlet guides a bit (just a few mm.)
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  11. 911308

    911308 Karting

    Jul 27, 2010
    119
    Launceston
    Great work!
    Losing 4 cc chamber volume shouldn't be too hard. 20 thou off the piston ( keep 5mm crown thickness), remove some material around the far side of the spark plug ~ 2cc , sink the exhaust valve & shorten the stem ~ 2cc and hollow grind the chamber face of the intake valve ~ 1 or 2 cc depending on thickness of which there looks plenty.
    I will do some CR sims on detonation likely hood with known data and the the cat cam specs

    Cheers Rob
     
  12. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    I look forward to the sims Rob. Are you able to model the fuel and ignition as I can change the Weber chokes and jets, adjust the ignition map with the MSD6350 based on rpm and MAP.

    I was very happy with the German made rod bearing from Dinoparts. One was scratched in shipping and Alfredo sent a replacement immediately. The finish is better than the Superformance bearings and gives the correct crush and clearance. The ACL Suzuki G16 bearings were actually a better finish than both and look very well made. They are a different colour and totally different marking system (ACL stamped, Superformance laser) so I suspect the latter are not from Australia. They would work fine as long as you grind to suit the bearings as fitted in your rods.

    Off to port the second head and not enthralled by the prospect of several hours on my feet, mask on, and super concentrated not to touch the seats. I might find a short 40mm OD tube to tape in place inside the seats to ease my mind.
     
  13. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
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    Derek W
    #213 derekw, Mar 7, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Managed to do the exhaust ports and air injection plugs but yet to start on the second head. I torqued in the air injection plugs with copper washers, marked the protruding nose with a red marker, took them out and ground off the extra before replacing and smoothing with a sandpaper roll.
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  14. MickyB

    MickyB Karting

    Aug 21, 2016
    97
    Hungary
    I made some simulations for my project too, and adjusted it for your estimated specs,
    hope it helps a bit...
    It seems there is not a big risk of detonation with 100 ron+ fuel , and 12:1 comp.
    It covers my experience too.
    Also i suggest to make the ignition based on alpha n, so rpm and throttle pot.
    It works much better i think ( 20 years race car engine building and ecu prog :) )
    than rpm/map...
    For a rough estimate and starting point @100% tps
    15 deg @ 1500rpm
    20 @2000
    23-25 @ 4000
    26+27 @5K
    29@6K
    30@7K
    I usually make 14 tps break points and 16 rpms in my ecu's so you need
    a dyno or rolling road to fine tune and fill out all 224 points
    The jetting is harder to guess, but in general use bigger fuel jets and small air correctors
    so it will reacher so you are on the safe side...
     
  15. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
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    Derek W
    #215 derekw, Mar 7, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I can get 98-99RON fuel here in Canada and in the UK if I take the car with me, but am concerned about the stresses and heat generated by going that high on the compression. I also remember reading somewhere that 93 octane pump gas requires a dynamic CR of 8.5:1 or less so perhaps 98-99 can manage over 9.0:1?

    I just got some brass plugs for the oil and water passages from Duncan Rogers in the UK. Only 1.80 quid if you order 10.

    Brass Internal Hex Male Metric Blanking Plug - Engineering
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  16. MickyB

    MickyB Karting

    Aug 21, 2016
    97
    Hungary
    More cr not always means much more power and heat . I'm testing, succesfully 4 cyl
    1.6L 2 valve engines with 45dcoe webers and programmable ign way above 14 CR, 190hp+
    using stock waterpump and radiator with 80 deg termaostath.
    Even the water pump is slowed down because the rpm is higher then it likes to operate with the stock ratio!
     
  17. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
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    Derek W
    #217 derekw, Mar 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I soaked the carbs in Gunk degreaser gel overnight and then gave them a good brushing with a nylon dish brush and they turned out so well I'm thinking of just blasting carb cleaner through all the passages and trying them as they are. The throttle shafts have no play at all and there is so little wear I wonder if they weren't replaced not long before the car was parked. They are a matched set 72/73/74/75 8N.
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  18. jmaienza

    jmaienza Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2009
    629
    Massachusetts
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    Joe
    Very nice thread to follow with great pictures for reference for future members.

    While you have the carbs out, I would take them apart and check the float valve for any scoring of the needle valve and then check the float height.

    Also if the throttle shaft beatings are original, they are not sealed bearings. They recommend being repacked with grease and then a sort of washer covers the end of the hearing and acts as a sort of seal to keep out air. Well it works for a while until the grease gets thin and soon a vacuum leak develops through the balls. There are sealed bearings that can be installed on the shaft. Its a bit of a job, but info is out there and in Weber manuals on removing the bearings, throttle plate and re-staking the new screws on the shaft. You have come this far with your engine rebuild I would hate to see you chase a vacuum leak and have to take off the carbs once they are installed, a real chore.

    Accelerator pump diaphragm should also be checked. The rubber often cracks or gets stiff.

    Also, check the flatness of the bottom of the carbs. They are often overtightened and develop high and low spots and get warped. They can be restored by a specialist using a press, but I checked mine when rebuilding and did a light sanding using a granite slab with some fine grit sandpaper coated with oil. Go gentle and check frequently. This is also a source of vacuum leaks.

    Again, you have come this far, you might as well go through the carbs and make them as good as possible. In fact, re-building the carbs is actually a fun job and you get to do it 4 times. Once re-built and set, they are usually good for a while. Taking them off later to correct a problem is a big job. You don't want to be the guy that says, "I should have done that when they were off."

    Great rebuild and good luck.
     
  19. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2011
    2,085
    Mooresville, NC USA
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    Matthew
    Good to know. I never would've considered a vacuum leak through the bearings. I guess I should figure on rebuilding that when I have the plenum, throttle body and intake manifolds out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  20. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2011
    2,085
    Mooresville, NC USA
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    Matthew
    This continues to be an inspiring thread, Derek.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  21. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
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    Derek W
    #221 derekw, Mar 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    More good news on the carbs. First I lathered soap bubble foam on and around all the throttle shafts and cupped my mouth on the bottom and blew against the closed throttle plate. I could hear air going through the idle circuit but no air came out of the sides. I even tried sucking with a vacuum cleaner and the foam piles didn't change.

    Next I filled the carbs with water and all the accelerator jets were shooting very strongly and evenly. After refilling I tried to blow more water down the fill tube into the carbs but the float valves all sealed well. Finally, with the carb full and on a flat surface I measured the water level in the bowl using a paper dip stick down an emulsion tube hole and all were within 1mm of each other (25.4-26.4mm below the machined face for the cover. Does anyone know if this is correct? Can someone with a carb that is apart adjust their float and check the fuel height afterwards?

    So I am not going to take the carbs apart as they are quite easy to take off if I need to later. I will probably be changing jets and chokes once it is running but I'm pretty sure these are fairly new (or newly rebuilt.)

    My MSD 6AL-2 programmable arrived and a blaster SS coil so I will try to check if my stock VR sensors can trigger it individually and then in parallel.

    I also got 25 feet of silicone hose from Hose Pro Inc. (check ebay) to replace the long heater hoses: 25ft 5/8" Flexfab Heater Hose 65.00, USPS Priority Mail Shipping 12.95, Total is 77.95
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  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    I would take them apart and blow with compressed air any water out. Petrol and water don't mix well and form a jelly ...

    BTW these carbs (and the side draughts on my Alfa) are low maintenance but they do need to be pulled apart and cleaned out every now and then, as dirt causes problems. Other than that they never need adjustment.
    Pete
     
  23. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    Pete, I checked all of the emulsion tubes, progression holes, idle screws and seats and they were all clean. I gave all the holes, seats and passages a good blast with carb cleaner and dried them with a heater fan. I have rebuilt so many DCOEs over the years and have never seen such clean used Webers. I'm confident they are good to go and if the sniffer tubes prove me wrong later it's so easy to whip them off.
     
  24. jmaienza

    jmaienza Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2009
    629
    Massachusetts
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    Joe
    Glad to hear that your carbs seem to check out.

    Having a carbed 308, I would not characterize pulling carbs "so easy to whip them off". I will not go into the details here, but remember there are 4 of them with fuel lines, mounting studs, linkages, vacuum lines, airbox removal and quite a few screws to adjust. I wish it was "so easy". Plus lots of open holes to drop things into. The good thing is once installed and adjusted properly, they tend to require very little maintenance.

    I eventually removed my sniffer tubes, even after fabricating a new set for both the front and rear using brake nut fittings and brake line tubing. I found that I could not find a probe that would not mate with the small diameter of the tubes. I eventually added two oxygen sensor bungs to my exhaust pipes just after the header and exhaust pipe connection. This allowed me to monitor the AFR of each bank in real time when I tuned my carbs on a dyno. (I have rebuilt 2V motor with USA cams and custom pistons so compression is about 10.5). The main disagvantage is the reading is an average of four carbs. but it was still helpful in setting carb jetting and programmable timing with my XDI unit. I did find the using my local gas (Northeast USA, 10% ethanol, 87 octane) the carbs do like some extra timing especially in the beginning with lower rpms.

    Some questions:

    How do you plan to use your sniffer tubes?

    What type of measuring device and probe do you have to get your data?

    From what I have read, the main function of the sniffer tubes is to set the CO level at idle. Is that your plan?
     
  25. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    Hi Joe, Thanks for the feedback and comments. I was thinking of borrowing or buying a CO tester to help with the tuning (or use my old colortune kit if the plugs are visible with a mirror.)

    Given the close match of the float heights and all the clean orifices, these carbs have not seen much use since a rebuild or since new so I doubt they need rebuilding. As you say, when adjusted properly the need little maintenance and I marked and counted the adjustment screws turns when removing them so I put them back the same.

    Good idea to put 2 lambda sensors in the exhausts-- easy and a good extra bit of info. I'll do the same.
     

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