The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

+1
Nathan

 

+10k (?)

 

++100

Nice change to the first page El Wayne explaining the thread .

 

GOLF CLAP...

That might be the single best post one could have come up with for 10k posts... LOL

Balls in your court Jim

 

Am I the only one who thinks that "Internet" analysis doesn't prove anything? The word is, prove.

One would think to empirically prove something, it would be difficult, if not impossible to do on the "Internet".


If one was tasked with proving something, the "Internet" would not be the proper arena to do so.

If the car in question is or isn't 0846, I would want to have the physical car and all the experts/players and evidence in the same physical location,... then you can begin to prove something.

Otherwise it's really just interesting conjecture.

I don't believe that "0846" is or isn't what both camps claim it is.

It hasn't been properly proven either way.

Regardless or what it is or is not,...it is one hell of a vehicle.

My .02 Lira on the pasta plate.

 

Glickenhaus is the who drew first blood. Live by the sword, die by it.

 

While your suggestion is a good one... It is not a plausible one. Jim isn't going to let the car go under that level of scrutiny without knowing the outcome. Similar to a lawyer not asking a question without knowing the answer he is going to get... just isn't smart.

So... the next best thing is to use actual physical evidence in the form of photographs.

The majority of the photographs are Jims own photographs. It is truly the next best thing.

Then Steve went through archival documents and pulled out as many photographs of 0846.

The result is 003 is not 0846 after looking and comparing all of the photographs. The same historic photos would be used to prove Jims car wrong in the flesh as they were on here. And the pictures of Jims car are just as good as seeing jims car for the evidence or lack there of. We aren't discussing finishes... its the actual construction of the car which is very easy to see.


Im sure we would love to dispute the car in person... its just one party isn't going to let it happen.

This is not impossible and it certainly isn't conjecture. "proving" it on the "internet" isn't the tainted starting point you are suggesting. It is the medium in which we are communicating and sharing the data and the argument. The internet isn't proving anything.

People are and the photos are the irrefutable evidence.

 

BO 10.5 ? James Glickenhaus on the Pursuit of Speed ? Slipstream Network

Listen to the interview in the link above from about 47.15 and hear Mr Glickenhaus's claims made today regarding his car that he still calls "1967 Ferrari P3/4 chassis 0846, the car that won the 24 Hours of Daytona driven by Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini."

Ferrari scrapped the real 0846 after Le Mans 1967. They did nothing to the chassis after that. He's trying to negate real evidence that proves his car is not 0846 with fantasy. The Mugello test that he spoke about recently did not happen.

 

Well... all I have to say to that is...

HI JIM!

Glad to know you are lurking!

Wish you would reply and dispute the information that has been put forward.

Listen to this recording its pretty interesting or funny (not in a negative way its just funny that he is basically acknowledging the information)

Its interesting that he is saying who cares? who cares how much of it is real... LOL well its pretty evident that you cared at some point and for a considerable period of time.

 

Part of the claim he's trying to make is that Ferrari modified it so it's still real Ferrari and who cares how much of the chassis is left that won Daytona? And not who cares how much is real?

Ferrari did change the brake calipers and discs on 0846 from P3 to P4 type. Remember the rear brakes were attached to the gearbox on P3s and inside the wheels at the back on P4s. There were other changes too such as the suspension elements, steering rack, wider wheels and the radiator/oil cooler was of P4 type when the car was updated to P3/P4 spec. It's the P4 adjustable bias for the brakes that 0846 did not get along with the different positioned supporting tubes, actuating levers and repositioned brake and clutch master cylinders.

Glickenhaus DP0003 has the P4 style adjustable bias brakes, actuating levers, same shape tubing for this and the repositioned master cylinders. Also DP0003 has no rivet holes in one of the front left hand tubes proving it never had the aluminium sheet in this area of the tubing it would have if it really is 0846.

Mr Glickenhaus's claims that Ferrari lowered and pushed the engine forward and had to open up the mid section of the chassis are nonsense. The engine mountings/tubes are not the vestigial P3 mountings as he claims but are in P4 arrangement to fit a P3 type 412P projecting lug engine the car originally had fitted. Later the very crude method we see on the chassis, that compromises its rigidity, is used to mount the 312F1 36 valve flush mount cross bolt engine that he bought the car from David Piper with, that he wrongly claims is a P4 engine.

All as David Piper said: built to P4 plans.

 

Hilarious.

Here's Jim DRASTICALLY backing off of his earlier emphatic statements about DP003 in order to have a more reasonable position to deflect from. Who knows and who cares how much is original? It doesn't matter? If it doesn't matter why does he spend so much time trying to discredit people looking at photos on the internet and presenting excuses why his car doesn't match the original 0846?

If I purchased Piper's green car, painted it, bolted the 0846 steering wheel to it, and started calling it 0846 in every publication or show I could get it in; you can bet your a** Jim would be out of his mind comparing how much is original between one replica and the other. It would most definitely matter when it comes to proving a car is what it's claimed to be. Unfortunately in my scenario Jim would probably come out on top since he's had two decades to collect 0846 parts and "restore" (read revise) DP003 to fit what it's claimed to be.

 

Interesting points for sure. I could get you that steering wheel

Also, if it doesn't matter... why go through the trouble of the last 10 plus years trying to prove that it is 0846?

If it doesn't matter... well... then... why did you stamp the vin on the chassis?

why have you spent all this time trying to justify it?

Ohh wait thats right... because its been a push to get it covered that way and now that the stink has stuck... and the car is branded as 0846 with stories... now we don't need to look into the stories.

I love that he talked about the front half of the car. Im going to take credit for asking people to investigate into the front half... but absolutely ZERO credit for the work or results of it.

Also, this thread is the only place where any of that info is disclosed. So... he reads it. He knows. He just must not have anything to refute against it...

unless you do Jim?

We would all love to hear it!

Again, I want your car to be 0846. I have gone back and forth on if your car is or isn't over the years. It has been a fun ride... If I had to choose which I wanted it to be... it would be 0846... the evidence put forth just doesn't hold water.

 

Compare the sounds of the engine in DP0003 to that of a 4 litre P4 engine.

DP0003 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFnJVUmGM-w

P4 0856 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awArTC8iQ3Q

 

Question, what percentage of the historic racers are historic period cars beyond data plates. Some for sure, many not.
I see all those can am cars, advertised as retubbed and having spare bodywork.

In the end, if Jim ever decides to sell, the market will decide as it does with many cars.

As for the rest imo, its a provenance competition which seems very far removed from enjoying or driving these cars, which is a pity.

 

When it comes to a specific car with significant historical importance I disagree.

I can enjoy a copy of the Mona Lisa hanging on my wall. It is a very different matter if I claim it to be the original Mona Lisa.

 

Unnecessary. The way sound has been recorded and edited in both videos is worlds apart. Impossible to draw any useful conclusions comparing these two videos. Stick to the photos, they do a better job of proving your point.

 

The argument is more along the lines of not what is original on this car or that car...

but that the argument put forward is that the car was NOT of ferrari origin to begin with. The parts it is noted to have are not original and sometimes not even the correct type.

This isn't a well this car has been retubbed or this car has a front clip...

The argument is... this car didn't exist and has never been owned by Ferrari at any point in time. In otherwords adding ferrari parts to it doesn't make it a car that was produced by or for ferrari.

Im overgeneralizing a bit to paint a picture of what is truly being contested.

If my memory serves me correctly the car does not have the following and if I am wrong please please chime in:

Does not have original body work
Does not have original frame
Does not have original type of frame
Does not have original engine
Does not have correct style engine
Does not have original exhaust
Does not have original transmission
Does not have original brakes
Does not have original interior
No original stampings on chassis
Chassis number added recently by current owner

If I built a replica today it would not have the following:
Original body work
original frame
original engine
original exhaust
original transmission
original brakes
original interior
factory stamped chassis numbers or markings.
Chassis number would or could be added by builder, state or owner

 

That says it as eloquently as 10K posts!

 

The Grand Tour James May Film: Le Mans - Ford v. Ferrari.

Also, in what must be one of his last interviews, the Late Great John Surtees talks about 1966 Le Mans.

£20,000,000 GBP DP0003 is featured in the video.

See here: https://vimeo.com/203476647
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Jeez, how much would an original one fetch then?

 

Rob, you realize your parameters mean this thread will stay up forever.

1. Ferrari is not going to do doodly-squat. Why should they? They are in the business of selling new cars and memorabilia. Who cares about some 50-year old race car that may or may not exist?

2. Glickenhaus will never admit this car is not #0846, never. I don't care how much evidence piles up, he will not admit defeat.

So... the beat goes on. This thread is a strange attractor.

 

Agree, Ferrari will never voluntarily say its not 0846, however throw them enough Lira to take it in and work on it, and in time they may well say yes it now is!

 

If Ferrari was a rational company, sure. But evidence has shown it is not. Moreover, there is apparently some history of Ferrari and Glickenhaus not seeing eye to eye.

 

I don't know about them not seeing eye to eye but it would not surprise me at all as Mr Glickenhaus has a history of twisting what Ferrari have said about 0846 as well as stating things they have not said.

 

Reality is, this is not Glickenhaus versus the factory...

This is FChat keeping post traffic up to line whoever's pockets...

The legality and reality of this very nice replica is documented here and Ferrari don't care what Jim says and FChat/Lay/whoever owns it now is too scared to make a stance for the fear of litigation...(they were quite happy to be a disciple for many years though...)

Grow some balls...the car is a fake...

It's boring now...

Paul