Official Countach Value Thread

You make a lot of claims, accusations and assumptions, most of them unfounded and without any merit whatsoever. It seems to me that you are a potential Countach or Miura buyer who is somehow upset that at the point when you are looking to buy, values are higher than you care for. The truth is, this is a great time to buy Countach.

Your claim that I caused Miura values to increase in an underhanded way is false, simply because, the values of practically every other make & model sports car which I have nothing to do with have also increased! Yes, Ive championed the cause of certain makes & models the Miura included, and I’m sure my work has helped values increase in an honest & meaningful way, but, there have been others who have promoted the Miura at least as much I have - Simon Kidston for instance. On the other hand, if I am guilty of causing Miura values to increase, 762 people are happy, and it has the effect of pulling up the values of other Lamborghini models too. I see nothing wrong in advancing the value of collectible cars, and whilst I think John Collins is a great guy for championing the cause of the 250 GTO over the last 30 years, I’m not crying because I can’t afford one!

BTW, I’m not interested in posting in 3 or 4 different sites on the internet, I picked this one 12 years ago and stuck with it, that’s all I have the time for. Besides posting here and doing deals, I’m far too busy doing constructive research, the kind that leads to writing, photographing & publishing the Miura book for example The Lamborghini Miura Bible ? Joe Sackey | Joe Sackey Classics That’s what real enthusiasts do with their time, IMO, so, the Countach book is next!

Your claim that Ive offered competition to another entity is only true in as much as it has been purely competition fair & square. My business model based on Private Treaty sales is different and personally I think its great for customers, clients and end-users, especially when they can get to work with someone who is a resource and not simply ‘moving metal’. There is absolutely nothing wrong with competition, the consumer benefits.

Your claim that I have harassed someone is a joke. Who is famed for harassing on these boards? You;ll establish that if read a little more. I guess if you harass someone continuously for 2 years, that’s what you get.

LABrit? I would love to have him come back on here and debate with us, after all the fuss he made just because I gave him good solid advice, a truth he didn’t want to hear. I guess he made such a good decision and loved that Countach so much that he sold it in no time at all. That speaks for itself.

I love what I do and the way I do it, and I’m not going to change a thing. I’ll keep on doing what I do, all that matters is those who appreciate what I bring. My clients know who I am, some of them actually have the time to be on the internet and might be reading this, and perhaps they will comment - they might paint a different picture.

 

Why such huge difference in qv values. While the anni version you tacked on 100$k. Low/high side?iow the fulie buyer needs glasses. While the dd buyer can see just fine?

 

Intersting. Also. The yellow fuelie was bid to 270 net aprox 300 all inn. Last weekend in Ft Lauderdale auction. Two or so weeks earlier a DD in similar condition (based on comments)fetched aprox 335 all inn at Amelia island. Wich logisticly is a few miles up the road,Beeing the Countach market is very small and translucent. I am pretty shure who ever was willing to pay 300 for the Yellow fulie. Also probably attended the Amelia Auction. In order to bid on the DD. (beeing these cars where promoted hard)we all know the dd value acc to misc lists and predictions and actual sales,why was this car sold for such a small premium above what somone was willing to pay for the fulie? I dont buy the theori it slipped thru the cracks. I knew aboat this car 2 months ahead of the auction. I am confident any real buyer also did. Anyway. It is what it is. Next time might be different.

 

I think I remember Roy saying Joe does the brokerage gig the best or something to that effect? I think that says it all and since then all seems quiet.

To think someone on one forum, can influence someone elses spending habits is COMPLETELY ABSURD!!!! Especially seeing as this is a worldwide hobby with many actors. Aggregated information on rare items is incredibly value additive and I for one am so happy these threads exist. Doc K, just remember, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Thats exactly what Joes done here. Lamborghinis deserve this recognition and to shed whatever stigmas they have acquired over the years.

You come off as some sort of socialist car owner whereby you believe prices should be controlled somehow for the "enthusiast." Pretty sure someone spending so much money is enthusiastic by default....

Have you even studied historical Miura prices? I remember seeing an SV in the late 90's with a price tag in the $600s. What the hell are you even talking about seeing Miuras as being cheap a few years ago?!?!? Are you aware of what happened during the financial crises, the worst one since the depression? Yeah discretionary items dropped like a rock.

 

I must admit, Joe Sackey has done an incredible job documenting the history of the Miura. Arguably, no one individual has done MORE for enthusiasts and collectors than Joe when it comes to the Miura.

But to say that Joe has completely altered Miura prices is absolutely insane.

Who altered 250 GTO prices? or D Type prices? or 300SL Gullwing prices?

If this is the case, Joe should have stock piled at LEAST 20-30 Miura examples before publishing the Miura Bible.

I think he has owned 5-6... Joe where are the other Miura's????

We demand answers!!

 

Well, to the defense of low prices in 1982, I was a student and spending my free wednesday PM in Paris seeking Exotics. I recall finding a muira S for the equivalent of 16MM old Francs back then which I could have bought car for if the seller would have taken my monopoly money. That was roughly $20K.

Car sold quickly and looked a bit tired. If only I could have seen the future and convince my dad, an exotic averse, to buy it!

 

Thank you John.

Although I don't always agree with Simon Kidston, I have a great deal of respect for what he has done for the Miura also, so, I am by no means alone in championing the cause of the Miura. Let's not forget to blame him too for current values!

As ridiculous as the concept is, IF I have single-handedly increased the values of Miuras, I can only accept that as a supreme compliment! In fact, being a classic sportscar & supercar consultant, if I can single-handedly affect the values of a particular model, the next time you look up the meaning of the word Genius, you'll see a picture of me!

So values of any iconic car have increased and someone can no longer afford one? Boo Hoo.

You are right about my Miura stockpile, I owned no less than 5 Miura SVs over a 20-year span, but I forgot to mention the dozens I have collected in my underground bunker, along with hundreds of Countachs If you belive half the nonsense & conspiracy theories you read espoused by wannabees & Johnny-Come-Latelys with nothing better to do, you'll belive anything. Oh, and Bob Marley is still alive, he & I played soccer last night, we are kinda tight like that

Hope you & yours are well my friend.

 

Those are my numbers, others may differ.

 

I do recall back in late 2002 - early 2003 Frank Sinatra's old Miura #4407 was offered on ebay at or around $72,000.00 USD.
Shortly thereafter it sold for $150,000.00 which I would consider relatively inexpensive compared to today's values.
I remember saying to my wife that I should purchase it at the time, however I wanted a Countach instead and I thought I could always get one later.
Well sometimes later never comes as they are now out of my league.

Frank Sinatra Miura S #4407 Auction

 

I discovered the Sinatra Miura after it had remained hidden for 20 years. In fact, several well-placed people told me: "It probably no longer exists!" That didn't stop me. It took not inconsiderable research & some detective work, but it turned up only a few miles from where Frank Sinatra was born in Hoboken NJ. I'd say the Sinatra Miura is a multi-million dollar car today, and it has a great custodian in Harald, who drove it across several countries to and back from Lamborghini's 50th - proving that the notion that these cars will not be driven when they get valuable is complete nonsense.

Amongst my personal low-price stories would be purchasing the Miura SV Prototype for $100k (now certainly a $2.5 to 3m car) and an LP400 Periscopa for $85k.

 

You quoted and aswered only half of my question. Why not the same difference in the Anni fulie. Versus Anni Dd?thanks

 

Nils,

I already addressed this http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145306290-post5008.html

Part of the problem is, your posts are often range from the confusing to the unintelligible, making them difficult to decipher.

I was invited to give my thoughts on values, Ive given them and I don't have to defend or explain away each variant's numbers, if you don't agree with my numbers, I respectfully understand, feel free to consider some of the many other sources that exist for your specific purposes (which are very clear).

 

Exactly.

 

No answer without an insult. Thanks anyway.

 

1984 or thereabout I had around $20K to spend and was interested in purchasing a Miura. Bob Wallace asked me why I wanted a piece of crap like that!

 

Correct, I took it back in from him on trade. I have since sold it to a new home in Central California, where it lives today.

 

There is no doubt that Joe has been early to the game on cars that eventually were accepted to the rest of the world as super special and valuable.

And it also seems that he has been right in every case to this point for those with a longer term view. The Miura was one of the examples and he ended up writing a terrific book on the subject. I'm sure he's not raking in millions from that but has established himself as one of the main experts. That takes extreme time and effort. Of course people are always try to discredit the expert. So that they look like the new expert without the 10,000 hours plus that it takes to be one.

No one can say whether the Countach is currently undervalued. I'm sure there are many that agree it is heavily undervalued. And maybe there are those who have not yet accomplished the ownership dream and are trying to hope that the prices continue to slide backwards.

It would seem that today would be a great time to buy one of these cars if you can and if it is your dream. To own an asset like this with such enthusiasm behind it surely is more fun than owning a stock or bond.

There are enthusiasts and there are investors and there are some who are both.

I don't see any problem with that whatsoever. Do you have to be one or the other? Why?

Don't hate the expert. Just think about if you bought a Miura or Periscope 20 years ago and held on. One thing is for sure . 20 years will again pass by. Do you think the Countach will be worth more then? Will you have had countless hours of fun and challenge with the car?

In closing , I would like to thank you Joe for the amount of free information that you provide every day so we can make informed decisions. The Countach was the ultimate dream car for an entire generation. My enthusiasm matches yours.

 

Sorry, perhaps not what you want to hear, but, it was a good & complete answer with no insult, only the truth, and my sentiments about your posts only echo what others such as rmolke85 have already pointed out.

 

That is so funny

I experienced something similar with Bob.

@ 17 years ago, when I took the ex-Shah of Iran Miura SV 4870 engine to Bob to rebuild, he looked at me and asked: "WHY?"

 

Thank you for this balanced perspective.

 

it was also a good and complete question, wich needed no added insult included in the answer. All good

 

Agreed

 

Sorry you are not hearing what you want to hear, opinions differ from yours, if its truly "All good", let it go.

 

I have been reading this and told myself, has nothing to do with me..so no need to chime in. That was until Joe JUST had to poke at the fire with some comments pointed at me.

I think their are many people that buy private treaty from Joe just as their are many that buy from a Licensed and well insured and established brick and steel location such as from me.

As a "Broker" Joe has cars to offer that may not be in the Public eye such as I have cars that are. Both methods of selling cars have their pros and cons. The biggest CON IMO with from a broker is the fact that it CAN NEVER be protected under the law for the BUYER as is a Licensed Dealer purchase. This is due to the fact that a broker car does NOT fall under the Federal Consumer Act protection, implied warranty's, merchanabilty or ANY of the implied safety laws of the car under Federal guide lines. A broker car does NOT have to meet NEARLY any of the requirements as a DEALER car does.

This DOES not mean that Broker cars are bad or junk. Not at all, it just means as a buyer your ONLY recourse is to bring private court action. You will HAVE no recourse under mandated Federal and/or State laws, (such as the strict consumer acts in California) and cannot there for collect triple damages, lawyer fees and tort costs. You are in fact buying a car with considerably LESS protection then when you buy from a licensed Dealer, there is not dispute with that. YOUR only recourse is the SELLER, not even the Broker is liable as its a PRIVATE negotiated sell. This type of transaction has very very little protection and its burden to show cause and harm has a very very high threshold for successful court litigation. This is NOT the case as compared to a DEALERS sale. You also have the protection (as a Broker) of everything is hush hush and swept away if there is an issue, there is no BBB to report a broker to, no State agency rep, nothing. This makes for a lot of times if there is an issue with a Broker sale, it never comes to light in the Public eye.

I am by no means suggesting this is why Joe Brokers car or that he has had issues. He has found his calling in life and it works for him. I take issue with him referring to a broker, such as himself, having knowledge to share and experience to share with the possible buyer AND referring to us "Dealers" as JUST PUSHING METAL. I may PUSH metal, but I have just as much care and consideration for my customers as you do. I also have vast knowledge as well that is shared quite often with my buyers AS WELL as non buyers just reaching out to me for advise and info. I, AS Joe love these cars and consider myself lucky to not only own them, but to be able to sell and trade in them. I can also say that almost every week I learn something NEW about one variant or another. I just dont happen to have a thread going to share that, Joe does fine in that department, better writer then me, so cudos for him and this thread. But I most say I am offended to be called a 'metal Pusher'. In fact if that was the case, I would not spend well over $5K a year to SPONSOR this site..I do it because I love the info that is shared here and the cars themselves.

As far as LA Brit and his Countach that I sold him. Yes, till this day I think it was completely wrong of you to "talk my car down" that he was buying. You NEVER saw the car, you NEVER inspected it, you NEVER had any service history or details on the car...yet found it OK to dis courage him from a car you had NO FIRST hand knowledge of. Today you chalk off to LA Brit as he just "didnt like to hear" your facts on the car....YOU had no facts.

And yes, he sold it fairly soon after I sold it to him. However, this was only because I reached out to him to see if he wished to sell it. I had a buyer that was willing to pay $40K more then he paid for it. He decided to take that upswing profit and re-invested it into another vehicle. THAT BY no means AS you suggest, that he had a negative issue with the vehicle or that it was less of a car THAT YOU represent, it was not AND for you to suggest such is IMO 110% WRONG.

Nothing at all wrong with competition. Healthy for any market. But next time, try saying why YOURS is better then another on the market with factual documentation. Its never good to bad mouth your competitors inventory, just sell your inventory on its facts and merits, NOT unfunded rumors or comments. Never state FACTS as your first hand knowledge about a vehicle YOU HAVE never even been within 1 mile of.

Thats my 2 cents here, I DONT want another word exchange back and forth, so no need to respond, its just out here because I was called out by you Joe, in your round about innuendo way, so I felt it necessary to answer. Always good to hear BOTH sides.

Back to our previous programming

 

One thing I find confusing on these values as posted.

A $650,000.00 premium for a perfect 5000QV DD vs. a perfect 5000QV Bosch fuel injected car?

So, if I had 2 identical Countach's in my garage, both brand new, 100% original, delivery miles, maintained on a regular basis, same color combo, etc. and 1 was a DD and 1 was fuel injected, the most the fuelie is worth is $350k while the DD is worth $650k more @ $1 million?

Has there been a DD sell for $1 Million? I've not been following values since the downturn. I remember a couple years ago a black/black F.I. Car go across the block at auction for over $460k. And I thought I remember some DD cars in the $600k range, but a $1 million?

Mike