Why so many F1 problems

I follow FChat closely and it seems there are frequent postings related to F1 problems. So my question is why, what's going on to cause so many reported problems. Design, maintenance, driving habits, or ???

Thanks,

Brewman

 

As a mechanic my experience with ferrari and maserati is that you pay gor design and technology not quality. Have had f430 with 13,000 miles, ac compressor was done and convertible top cylinder leaking. Another f430 with 25,000 needed both fuel pumps replaced... they ware cracked and leaking.. have had maserati QP with less thank 30k and needed timing variators... plenty window regulators... way to many control arm bushings... and their interiors are the worst...... beautiful but will not last like in a benz for example... again. O quality in these cars whatsoever... just pure sexyness and speed...(my experience).

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Manual transmissions are, well, human operated--and nothing ever goes wrong with humans operating things.........


Oh, wait!

 

Any system that is advanced is also prone to more potential failures. Combine that with many folks that don't know how or just lack of service and you get the bad rap. My F1 operates flawlessly at this time

 

The main reason for F1 problems is lack of maintenance. Ferrari did not figure out until the 599 that F1 fluid needed to be changed at least every 3 years, along with a bleed, self test, leak check, and resetting and optimizing (if possible) PIS.
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The first generation of F1 transmissions are now 20 years old. That combined with the miles that the cars have accumulated and the complexity of the system is resulting in more failures. Another reason why manual transmission cars are commanding higher prices.

 

A lot of reality with what both Terry and Brian said. Combine that with a new technology that mechanics needed to learn about and the fact that many owners ignore warning signs hoping it will go away and you have 90% of your answer. On the topic of mechanics learning it, many never have but it doesn't stop them from charging for experimenting and a great many will not make the investment in proper equipment to diagnose and service them. The system can be highly reliable with proper care but it is far more complex so will never be as reliable as a manual transmission but the same is true of conventional automatics.

Ignore post 2, it's largely rubbish.

 

Thanks for the advice, also on maintenance. Mine is due for a fluid change, I honestly did not think about it.

The more reliable cars become, the less we (or at least I) tend to think about maintenance that used to be common. I check my checks once a year; the rest of the time I just look at the TPMS (but I do that daily)

 

Not for long next 5 years will see less and less problems because allready fixed.

 

What is already fixed? Are you saying parts, expensive complex parts do not get old and break?

 

To touch on Brians' comment about old parts. The actuator valve body is a wear item, esp on the 355 and 360's, I haven't looked into the newer models but on the 355/360 they are made of cast then machined aluminum, the valve piston seals are carbon impregnated teflon, any guesses as to what happens after many cycles? the bore is no longer sealed to spec and leakage rates increase, changing the seals doesn't help. Why they didn't go with a lined bore? no idea but at those pressures and cycle rates they should have.

 

I have told every person in the market for an F1 car, I like them, I'd have one but be forewarned, it will break, it is only a matter of time because it is a collection of components far more complex than a manual shifter and it will be expensive when it does. I have no less reason to say that today than I did in 1997. And anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant of the facts with these cars as we have learned them since their inception or is lying.

 

Oh yeah.You know how it plays out.

Client brings the car in and the F1 pump is burned out. Only wants OEM. So you put a new one in and replace the relay at the same time. Car runs fine.

Client then comes back 6 months later because its "not acting right". Leaking actuator. You get blamed for not fixing it right in the first place. It's not the part or the system.. it's the mechanic cause "it's fixed".

 

Yeah, it's simply not a very robust system. I assume the later generation systems have better designs, but I have not studied them.

Aside from the mechanicals, when you throw in all the sensors, switches, and electronic processing (hardware & software), it is an awfully complicated way to change gears in an automobile.

I still prefer the older cars with sticks..... mainly because whatever breaks, I know I can DIY fix it, and parts costs are very reasonable in comparison. Not to mention they are far less finicky once assembled correctly.

I also still think Ferrari should still offer non-F1 as an option (even it costs more $$) on most of their new models --- I think they would sell well --- but, that's obviously not a shared perception by their management team.

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I'm going to speculate here, but my guess is that the design was due to a couple things. One the bean counters want to keep costs low, that's a given. Then we've got to deal with liability, so in this case a part that is mfg'd that would have to be replaced in whole vs rebuilt covers both the low cost and liability. Unfortunately it shifts the costs on to the consumer. So while having an actuator body that could be rebuilt with new seals then we'd also need to know the finished specs to insure it will function correctly with the system, I don't see Magnetti Marrelli handing that info out.

The actual level of mechanical complexity of the unit is not very high, anyone familiar with hydraulics would have no issues with it, the electronics are complex though but not overly so, all that aside, without the proper diagnostic equipment one would be useless in resolving F1 issues.

 

We could spin this off to cover why for days... bottom line I say it's all due to EPA regs.

 

Its simple cars are built to break down not to last as much as possible.....i spoke to a engineer and he told me he works for GM and he built a part that lasted 2 times as the original and they asked him to redesign it but to only last 60k not 120k... they make more money onparts than on car sales

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Very likely and the reason many default to auto mode at start up.

 

I work in FCA in the calibration of MM automatized gearboxes (we use that a lot in econoboxes down heres), so it's nice to see fellow fchatters opinions and experiences.

I'd say that components quality can be a issue sometimes (although I expect quality in european made parts to be better than the local ones...)

 

Funny thing is, I have noted that the transmissions in 3 pedal 360s tend to have way more problems than the actual transmissions in F1 cars. Probably because F1 does not miss shifts. The F1 system itself needs regular maintenance, but it seems to extend transmission life.

 

Even in the manuals problems are for the most part service related. I almost never see issues on well maintained transmissions but well maintained transmissions are not the majority.

 

I agree. Yes, it is just an actuated valve body --- not too complex at all. But, as I said, and you said, it is just not designed / built too well for durability.

You can screw up the robustness of a flag pole...... if you don't design, or manufacture, it properly

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Syncro wear on 2nd and 3rd? Not surprised. Either miss 5 to 4 and get 3, or too much force into 2nd. I think manual is a more robust option if the driver has forgiving driving style. Too many knuckleheads being too aggressive with their shifting or not knowing how to shift or use clutch. Add to that shift lever that is out of alignment with plastic bushing wear.. Everyone was amazed when my boxster had 77k on the original clutch. It's just you have to know how to drive. Do you think leaking thrust bearing seals might lead to incomplete disengagement of the clutch and thus increased syncro wear and gear issues?

 

I have had several cars that just plain wore out engines and transmissions and still had the original F1 hydraulic components untouched. How long should they last?

Like Taz said early on, quality service to a great degree dictates the service they deliver.

In my experience, since they came out, people break them, people ignore servicing them and people use improper service procedures. That accounts for the vast majority of problems. Hard to blame Magnetti Marelli for any of that.

 

OK, so you replace the fluid at a regular interval. What else can you service on the system that might prevent a leaking actuator? What can you service on the system beyond replacing the relay, the motor that will burn out and perhaps the clutch release bearing seals? Clutch wear.

I'm just curious what could be done to prevent an actuator leak or other issue? Seems the system is modular..