The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Or, at a minimum, lock this thread. If anyone has something new to post, they can start a new one.

 

why lock the thread?

How about if you are sick of looking at it... just don't look at it. Seems pretty simple. A little self control goes a long way.

And as far as "post traffic to line fchats pockets" seeing has there are about 10 maybe 15 people who post on this thread... its not even lining the lint that is in the pockets of fchat. How many posts have there been since the beginning of the year? ya... not exactly a money maker.

 

When was the last time someone said something new?

 

Answering a question with a question... GREAT

To answer your question about... looks like the end of March.

You do realize that this is a "discussion board" It says right at the top... its a discussion...

It doesn't say statement board.

This is an open conversation about a particular topic. You can choose to partake or you can choose not to. Pretty simple.

If you close the thread... nothing new will EVER be added.

No new questions can be asked.

If new threads are created people there will just be more and more threads and all of this "dreaded lining of fchat pockets" will increase.

This keeps it concise. Its small but visable.



Let me ask you this... what is the benefit of locking the thread?

The only benefit I see is if you lock the thread... then it doesn't get any new posts... and then it drifts back and back into the pages to be forgotten?

Perhaps suppression is what you are after?

 

I give. You win.

 

Please see the picture below which shows the right hand side rear engine mounting of DP0003 next to that of the P3 type engine mounting of 412P 0854.

You can see that they are totally different. This is further evidence that DP0003 does not have vestigial P3 engine mountings as Mr Glickenhaus claims.

DP0003's rear side engine mountings are in P4 style with the extra diagonal tube above the mounting bolt hole. However this DP0003 mount is not the same as a real P4 mount as it was built to fit the 412P engine the car initially had installed and the tubes are at different angles and lengths. When the 312F1 36 valve engine was installed later a crude solution is used where an extra hole was drilled in on the diagonal tube below and to the right of the original bolt hole to line the engine mounting up and bolt it to the chassis.

A different solution is used for the left hand side rear engine mounting to fit the 312 F1 36 valve engine. An angled drop down bracket is used to mount the engine to the chassis as the chassis engine mount hole for the 412P engine originally fitted does not line up with the engine mounting of the 312 F1 36 valve engine.

For 1967 the real 0846 had its P3 engine mounting tubes removed and was correctly fitted with new P4 engine mounting tubes with mounting bolt holes that perfectly lined up with the P4 engine mounts as the pictures from Daytona 1967 that I have already posted prove and as has been stated by Ing. Forghieri.
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I do believe Mr Glickenhaus is describing the characteristics of a highly strung 3 litre Formula 1 engine with all the power at the top end. A more flexible lower revving 4 litre P4 engine with better low down power wouldn't have stalling problems at traffic lights.

 

Im sorry if the tone came across as aggressive.

For me its not about winning or losing or people giving. I genuinely wanted to know. I can see how I could have come across as rhetorical.

I have spent alot of time on this... but its a FRACTION of what others have... and to see all of the hard work just be thrown away because for some its inconvient fires me up a little bit.

Ill also admit...I like the debate. I wish Jim would get on here and throw some challenges the other way. I would absolutely love that and has good provab le! I hope one day he returns to debate the topic and ultimately prove that the car is the real deal legendary 0846... but seeing as the public court of opinion and automotive journalists have bit the bullet or drank the kool aide... there is no reason for him to come on here and "give up the crown" if you will. I don't mean that in a derogatory way... just that he set out with his goal... he pretty much accomplished it and now he is reaping the enjoyment from it... why end it.

 

Never going to happen.

Ferrari is never going to say diddly-squat.

All that can be said by those on Ferrari Chat has been said.

So... what's the point?

 

You are probably right... he is probably never going to come on here.

all that can be said has been said? good thing we didn't stick to that 10,000 posts ago...

A ton of great information and photographic evidence has been made available. Thankfully there was an outlet to share this information

 

You seem to be implying that Texas says this thread should never have happened, or that it should have been cut off in its infancy. What could possibly have given you that impression? Strawman arguments aren't needed here.

 

Strawman argument? Really?

You are misunderstanding my post. Which is understandable. I am not gifted in communication nor writing.

I am not suggesting that he is implying that this thread never should have been made. Not at all...

my point... which I either didn't make clear enough or you missed it all together is that...

Today will eventually be yesterday... and eventually 10k posts ago. What is being said today is just as important as what was said 10k posts ago and post 20k will be as meaningful as post 1 or post 30k. You cant revile in history without realizing that today is history... We are just the stewards in the mean time.

or

If you discount today you might as well discount the past as well... because today will be the past.

Its just looking at the larger picture of things.

again... im not sure if I am communicating this message clear enough... but by no means am I trying to insult Texas Forever or anyone for that matter.

 

Please see the attached pictures and you will see that if DP0003 did have vestigial P3 engine mounts as Mr Glickenhaus claims they would be the same as those on 412P 0854. 412Ps have the same configuration of tubing to form the engine mounts as P3s did. Please compare the picture of DP0003 with the picture of 412P 0854 and see the differences.

As stated previously, Glickenhaus DP0003 does not have the P3 diagonal tube that reaches from the forward side engine mount to the back corner of the side of the chassis engine area as P4s do not. In addition to this, on DP0003 the tube that reaches down from the corner/end of the bulkhead crossbar joins and intersects to form the forward side engine mounting directly above the bolt hole as it does on a P4 (minus the P4 engine chassis extension). However on a P3 chassis this tube met and intersected to form the forward side engine mount offset to the side of the bolt hole as it does on 412P 0854 to make space for the diagonal tube that P3s had that I refer to above so that it can also join the bolt hole to form the mount.

Please also see the picture of 0858 which shows the chassis extensions that meet the more flush to the cylinder block cross bolt forward side engine mounting of the P4 engine. The engine mounting tubes on DP0003 were built in P4 arrangement to mount the projecting lug 412P engine that DP0003 originally had installed in it. On DP0003 these tubes do form the mount in the P3 and not P4 position as the 412P engine has the same mounting coordinates as a P3 projecting lug engine. On P4s the omnidirectional tubes intersect and meet closer to the bulkhead to form the forward side engine mounts due to the different mounting points of the P4 engine.

The large bolt hole of the P4 forward side engine mounting can be seen in the 0858 picture which is the same as it was on 0846 pictured at Daytona 1967.

The engine mountings on DP0003 are therefore not the same as either a real P3 or a real P4.
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there are infinite reasons why and how the chassis of 0846 today is different than the chassis of 0846 was on its first outing. that doesnt mean that it is not 0846.

btw, i may be one of the few people on this site who knows Jim pretty well, AND has also met Montezemolo (and seen him in places doing things he probably doesnt want the guardia di finanza to know about), and i would take Jim's assertions and words over Luca any day of the week.

 

What about Glickenhaus DP0003 being different to how the real 0846 was on its last outing at Le Mans, 1967? You've mentioned infinite reasons without stating one. Would you care to share one or two with us. Thanks in advance for your response.

 

Wow, a real insider! Agree completely with Ross then. As long as we have infinite reasons, let's just call it the 67 Daytona winner!. Come to think of it, I have a couple of Ferrari's with infinite reasons they are not 0846 so just maybe...

 

nope. this anorak contest is way over my head. but i can imagine how things might have changed several times on race cars at ferrari during those days. you guys all act like this is mercedes !

the only part i will insist on is that IF it is just down to whose word you believe, then i know how to decide.

please carry on arguing with yourselves.

 

A detailed photographic review of the evidence now at hand is hardly an anorak contest when it was Jim that produced his detailed pdf in the first place, much of the contents of which has since been disproved with factual period and comparison pictures.

I don't think anyone has ever disputed Jims love of these cars, and that he is an out and out petrolhead. Given he produced the pdf it would be good if he took on board all the later information on this thread and revised it accordingly, which with the benefit of such info he may revise his opinion now based on that updated info, as to the basis of his actual car.

I imagine plenty of people would line up like yourself to give a positive first hand account of Jim, but that adds nothing to the detail of the matter at hand.

 

Ing. Forghieri had already cleared what happened to 0846 during its race life and AFTER the LM events so no mystery here.
Gab

 

Afraid not, he has given conflicting info to both sides of the discussion, all within a very short space of time, which pretty much cancels each other out as a result.

 

I am referring to what Ing.Forghieri wrote on February 23rd 2016 on his letter to Mr.Glickenhaus.
Gab

 

Which does not correspond with all the other emails and letters he wrote before or after that particular letter during 2016

 

Unfortunately Ing. Forghieri has been... how do I say this respectfully... inconsistent regarding his remarks/testimony (whatever you want to call it) about 0846. His words can't really be relied upon at this point as he has basically debunked himself or contradicted himself depending on the audience.

 

Well that sounds completely unbiased lol (im just having fun and making a joke)

I get it... you are a friend to Jim. It seems as though you are defending him and his position on 0846 as a good friend would. I can respect that.

However taking someones "word" over anothers when there is physcial evidence wouldn't be my recommendation for getting to the bottom of something.

Lets come up with a hypothetical...

lets say 0846 came up for sale and lets say the price is signficant lets say 20 million... or 40 million...

Would you not look at the chassis? Would you not look at steves evidence and research before pulling the trigger?

If not... ive got some crazy long lost race winners I would sell you...