Why so many F1 problems

Most people don't have clue about how to shift.

 

Curt- Change the fluid, bleed the system, run a self test, check for leaks on bleed blocks, actuators and lines. Just doing that will cut down on actuator and pump issues. I have a more bulletproof 30 amp relay for my F1 pump (Tyco V23134-B57-X266) and Aldous Voice's site tells you how to put the later 50 amp relay in if you are really paranoid. Annually, my techs also change out half the F1 fluid with a turkey baster. We change power steering fluid at least every two years and it is essentially the same stuff as F1 fluid, only the F1 fluid is beat on more severely.

Eventually, if we have to, we can SS sleeve the actuators just like we do for brake calipers. Doubt it will be an issue for many 10s of thousands of miles, though, if the system is well maintained. So far at 24,500 miles on mine, everything works like new.

 

No I was talking about motors and actuators. That is because most of the problems voiced on this forum seem to point that way.

Thanks to people on here we now have a 600 dollar motor replacement for the 355 with no bleeding involved.

As Taz said the solenoids are the final piece other than switches and elctronics I guess. Not really trying to over simplify all the elctronics but so far so good. I guess there is the accumulator as well.

Nothing in my mind seems to be crazy expensive but I guess it all adds up.

Now You and Taz have me worried ha ha, there is a lot of chit that can happen and I guess it will eventually.

 

Thanks Taz. That's what I suspected. I presume the "worn dirty fluid" has moisture and impurities in it. The impurities score the cylinders while the moisture changes the compression characteristics of the fluid and erodes the integrity of the seals in the system. Reminds me I have to change my steering fluid!

 

Thanks for the great info.

Assuming the fluid is replenished frequently (turkey baster) and no drivability issues, is it necessary to do any computer adjustments / calibration to the system ?

 

Skipp- Changing half the fluid annually is a big help and can be done by an owner. Every three years, though, she should have the fluid changed completely, system bled, leaks checked and diagnostics done/PIS reset. That requires someone with diagnostic tools that knows what they are doing. Probably a good idea to swap out the F1 pump relay at about the same time if you are using an OEM one. BMW has the V23134-B57-X152 relay for about $15-20 online, which is superior to the OEM relay -X203. You can do a search in the 360 section for "BMW relay" and get the part number. Not quite as good as the -X266, but less than half the price and easier to find.

 

Thanks for the response. I'm hesitant to have anyone touch my F1 system with it working flawlessly. What's the downside to not having the computer / PIS calibrated ? I change the fluid in the resovoir multiple times per year, so I feel good about the quality of the fluid.

 

Well next time I hand someone a $20,000 estimate for an F1 repair I'll tell them no big thing because you know how to change a pump motor.

 

What one would say is due to complexity another (post 2) might say not ready for prime time. Given Ferrari's habit of sourcing the lowbidder I would say both of you are right...complex and cheap parts = disaster.

I want a DCT/F1 for racing but the technology is too complex for reliability vs. an automatic. In fact today's automatic is far more reliable and has DCT attributes. I think that is the streetcar win-win. Porsche seems to have their PDK the most reliable with BMW second and Ferrari...well you keep your fingers crossed everytime you start the car. Nope of those gearboxes are cheap to fix or have documentation available to the unwashed masses. I don't think there are many pros who could handle them either. Even Ferrari replaced boxes on warranty repair instead of let their techs have at them. With even the most advanced slushbox automatic you can rebuild them drinking beer.

 

Skipp- Same risk as any other deferred maintenance, I guess. If you do not have a tech you can trust, time to find a new tech.

 

Magnetti Marelli invented it. They were not the low bidder. They were the only bidder.



Bosch, Graziano, Getrag, Michelin, Brembo, Valeo. Yea, Ferrari is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

Thanks again for your response. I think my main question is, does the calibration of the system come out of spec overtime just from use, necessitating the computer re-calibration periodically. Just trying to better understand the system, rather than avoiding maintenance.

Thanks,

Skipp

 

I have a Graziano Italian lathe. Probably not the same company. It is a very hi quality machine.

 

Here in my local area we have a family named Graziano --- one cousin makes very well known and excellent Italian sausage, the other was arrested and thrown in federal prison for selling huge quantities of Vicodin illegally from his pharmacy business...

What's your point ?!

 

Oerlikon Graziano is a major transmission producer. All Ferraris since 355 up to the DCT have Graziano transmissions in all or part. Look them up.

 

Could be. Oerlikon Graziano have their hands in a lot of things.

 

I bought my car in very good condition 9,500 miles on the clock. Had it checked out by an independent shop. All was good, though my initial impression was that it shifted kind of rough. I suspected it was just the characteristic of the F1 transmission, I cannot expect it to shift as smoothly as my Mercedes SL63 AMG.

I drove it 1,200 miles in 2 months and 4th gear indicator began flashing. Shortly after that it got worse and started to drop into Neutral. I was even thinking of bleeding the system, but I broke down, realizing that there is not much I can do unless I have the right tool and looked at the numbers

So I bought a good scan tool. Checked the hydraulic pressure and determined it was not my pump, checked flow rates and no leaks detectable seen by the tool.

So I saved all the threshold values for each gear. Then I used the tool to engage each gear separately.

After which as everything looked fine, I ran an auto learn. After two minutes I was done. Gear 4 indicator flashing stopped and the transmission shifts very smooth.

I am so happy needless to say. I have been working on my cars and built a few engines over the 33 years I have been working in mechanics. But this is my first Ferrari.

I think the best thing we can do to prevent problems is have them adjusted when needed and change fluids in the F1 system using proper recommended procedures.

 

In our Maserati Coupe, the only F1 problems we had in 10 years were 2 incidences of burnt out F1 relay and/or F1 pump motor. I think many people now proactively replace the F1 relay every year or two, which is reported to help prevent problems (I don't know if that's true). I suspect the system would be much more reliable if they simply used an industrial strength relay to start with.

The issue, to me, with F1 failures, is not how often if fails, but what a PIA it is when it fails. When it fails, you are stuck in gear and you can't move, or even start the car, at all. With manual, you can flick it in neutral and move the car. The F1 failure happened to my wife where she was stranded in the turn lane of a busy 6-lane (both ways) intersection. She was not happy (to say the least) and liked that car a lot less from that day forward (even though it rarely broke other than the 2 F1 incidents).

The service charge to replace just the F1 relay and pump (no valve body) at the dealer was about $3k - the parts (motor & relay) weren't that crazy expensive, so it must have included a lot of service hours (I don't remember how many now). As far as I can tell, there is no justification for that when the only thing they are doing is replacing the motor and relay. There might be more complicated things required for other types of failures, but for the motor only, I think it can be replaced in less then 30 minutes with no disassembly required. When I got the quote for a large number of service hours, I asked if we should replace the clutch while they were "in there" and the service manager said they aren't "in there" at all -- they don't really disassemble anything. I don't know what makes up that huge quote, maybe it makes sense because of issues I am unaware of, but I couldn't find any way to justify it.

 

Skipp- It is not so much recalibrating the computer as letting the diagnostic gear run the self test to see if there are any problems and doing a bleed cycle to get all the air and old, groady fluid, water and air out of the system. Then resetting PIS for clutch wear to optimize operation. There is little risk doing this if you have a competent tech and he may find a component (potentiometer, etc) that is marginal, loose or has a bad connection. He can also find leaks before they become a major problem, especially if it is just something that needs to be tightened. With a little time from that kind of discovery, you can find replacement sets of hoses for way less than Ferrari prices or someone who rebuilds actuators instead of having to buy a new one.

 

Thanks Taz. Much appreciated !

 

Ha ha good one.

Hopefully you will just tell them the truth and judging by your many posts I have read I kinda think they are going to get that anyway weather they like it or not!!

 

Ferrari maserati version updated to 10.22 pmme xdiagpro3

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F1/CC (and manual) transmissions are not well suited to stop and crawl traffic. This driving mode relies on substantial and accurately controlled clutch slip. Sadly, more and more real world driving is stop and crawl. Electric cars are best suited for this driving mode.

 

Tony- They work fine in stop and go traffic if you know how to use F1 or three pedals. Just takes a bit more effort.

 

Taz would you mind walking us through this again for those of us who missed it. Are you lifting slightly before pulling an up shift?


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