The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Told you so. Given your parameters of either Ferrari or Glickenhaus fessing up, this thread will never die. Maybe that is your plan.

 

Duh

 

Is there any evidence that Glick was the first guy on the scene after Miles "Talentless" Davis's crash? That story annoys me to no end.

 

Imo this thread should be about the real 0846 and should stay here for whoever wants to post pics and stories on the original car or wants to read about Jim's belief and counter arguments so far on him owning some of its remains.
Meanwhile a new thread titled something like dp003 could be started in the replicas section and linked in here where Jim's car can be discussed more freely until it is proven as 0846.
My 2 cents.

 

Interesting what JG has to say at 3.50, 9.40 and 26.40.

See here and click on interview link at top of page where it says Start Podcast: 756: Jim Glickenhaus | CARS YEAH

 

Is the above poster someone who just dips in to this thread only occasionally and makes comments without possession of all the up to date factual information?

 

Gent.mo Sig. Robertson
Io penso che lei sia il maggiore esperto di P4 esistente.La serie di foto
che mi ha inviato mi hanno fatto enorme piacere, in particolare quella
della 412 s/n854
prima nuda e poi in restauro.Le devo comunque fare osservare che sia la
vettura
di Glinkenhaus che la vera P4 s/n 0858 non hanno il tubo da lei indicato
con le frecce rosse nella foto n 4(412 P s/n0854 ) mentre hanno il tubo
che lei indica
sempre con le frecce nella foto n 3(dp3 arrows).Questo diversa soluzione è
dovuta alle differenze tra motore 412 e 330.La parte posteriore del telaio
della falsa P4 di Glinkenhaus è stata fatta nuova e questi particolari non
potevano sfuggire ai carrozzieri, che avevano già costruito vere P4.E'
nella parte anteriore che non è stata rifatta, che mi sembra sia la
maggiore distanza dal vero.Lei dimostra comunque che la vettura di
Glinkenhaus non è una P4 originale con le sue foto relative al motore,ed
inoltre la posizione della stessa Ferrari, che ha negato il numero a cui è
molto affezzionato Glinkenhaus,e la mia stessa convinzione negativa e
quanto asserito da altri non dovrebbe fare credere che questa vettura
possa essere considerata originale.Io non sono potuto andare in Sicilia
per motivi di salute e di lavoro, ma sarò a Montecarlo.Ho cercato di fare
chiarezza sui due tipi di telaio per evitarle commenti e problematiche.
Grazie per
tutto con infinite cordialità e rispetto
Mauro Forghieri

 

Do you read the thread at all?

There are no pictures of Tom Meade with "what doesn't exist" and there are no humble pieces from 0846 in DP0003.

 

I guess where I am lost with the application of this logic is the following.

The builder of the car... Piper... built it had shown it and created provenance as a replica. Not the real 0846.

He then sold it as a replica.

A legal document was created that it was a replica and serialized as such that both parties agreed to.

So, they both said it. They both agreed to it. I don't see this as a he said she said sort of an argument. These aren't two different views of the same car accident.

We have an origin story of 003. we have proof of its provenance. We have a guy who built it. we have a guy who sold it as such (at a "low price" so the opposite of financial gain in effect for this)

We have the death the life of 0846.... the death of 0846 and its "resting place"

We don't have have pictures or testimony (spoken or otherwise) that wreckage was constructed into a chassis.

Following up to that we have that the chassis was so badly damaged it wouldn't have been much use a a basis to create a car.

Ignoring ALL of that. We have a car that is in the completely wrong configuration for the uniqueness of 0846. It has been argued it was changed etc in the rear. Well.. The rear doesn't match... the front doesn't match 0846 either.

Non original body work
Non original engine
Non original transmission
Non original interior
Non original brakes
Non original suspension
Non original front chassis
Non original Rear chassis
Non original chassis number

So to those who say if a good argument could be made on either side it would have been made... I ask you to go back through the last year or so's posts and tell me that a good argument has been made.

Steve has spoken to the ferrari engineer, Piper, Pipers wife, done tons of photographic documentation all supporting his view point. To say that a good argument hasn't been made... either you are not looking at the last years worth of posts or you are just playing ignorant.

I don't know Jim, but I am sure he has seen the posts and pictures... I bet you he has probably gone to verify some of the stuff himself. Im not saying he agrees with Steve, but I am sure he has checked into some of it... maybe even all of it... but I am sure some of it. I am sure he is a little curious if there is merit. I don't think he is an outright delusional person bent soley on this car being his identity etc... He has a lot of cool ****. He does a lot of cool ****... He has mass public support and people will still like him either way because he seems to be a nice and intelligent guy and alot of people like what he stands for (using the cars etc...)


The strongest point jim has and I welcome anyone to correct me if I am wrong... the strongest point and perhaps only point that Jim has... is that Ferrari hasnt said his car IS NOT 0846. I believe they also came to an agreement behind closed doors to not change that position. That they will not confirm or deny either way.

Again, if I have made ANY errors... please correct me. I do NOT mean this in a pompus way

Also the majority of this post is not direct towards you Rob, I was going to make multiple posts... but I am short on time and figured id just fire it off in one shot

Thanks... I truly do hope you are all having a good day!

 

incredible

 

"Falsa P4"

 

There are cars in the replica section which have:
Original body work
Original engine
Original transmission
Many original interior parts, gauges, shifter etc
Original brakes
Original suspension
Non original front chassis / repaired
Non original Rear chassis / repaired
Non original chassis number

But the owner of the 512S does not claim it is the real deal and put an R behind the s/n

He should retag it without the R so it becomes the real deal.

Note: the car was scrapped by the factory in 1970
Mueller had a lot of parts incl frames without a chassis tag

But....some brought a "replica" to Classiche and got no white book.
These "replica's" can be put here in Vintage though because part of the frame is original. How much we don't know but does it matter?

 

I know Ing. Forghieri since 2009, I believe in what he knows and remembers and I believe that what he wrote in the sentences above is the truth.
Gab

 

Does anyone have a quality English translation (i.e., not a Google Translate) of this?

...especially the "prima nuda" part.

 

"...prima nuda e poi in restauro."
"...first (in a previous picture) naked then during restoration."

"Nuda" is the italian for "naked" or "without bodywork".
Gab

 

Gabriele Longoni (FChat member Gablet) very kindly translated Ing. Forghieri's email dated 10th May, 2016 which is as below:

"Dearest Mr.Robertson

I believe you are the biggest P4 expert living nowadays.

I really liked the set of pictures you sent, especially the one about 412 s/n0854 bare chassis and during restoration.

Please note, however, that both Glickenhaus’ car and the real P4 #0858 don’t have the tube you pointed with red arrows on picture n°4 (412P s/n0854) while they have the tube you point with arrows on picture n°3 (dp3 arrows).

This different configuration is because of the differences between a 412 and a 330 engine.

The rear portion of Glickenhaus’ fake P4 is completely new and these details couldn’t have been missed by coachbuilders that built real P4s.

I believe that the biggest differences from a real one are in the front section.

You, with those engine pictures, are proving that Glickenhaus’ car is not a real P4; and Ferrari’s belief too is proving it, because they refuse the number that Glickenhaus loves most; my personal negative belief then and what others said should make anyone believe that this car is original.

I could not travel to Sicily due to health and work issues, but I will go to Montecarlo.

I tried to make things more clear to avoid further problems to you.

Thanks for everything, respectfully and with the best regards.

Mauro Forghieri"

 

Game, set, and match.

There is ZERO doubt now.

Replica.

 

Not qualified? If you have rules, you become a judge and have to apply them. And applying the rules does not stop any open discussion. Members can be banned but not the own rules. Ferrari confirmed in writing that such a car and number is no more. The car was sold and bought as a replica. And Forghieri – as the car’s creator – confirmed in writing, that DP0003 is indeed a ‘falsa P4’ with a wrong rear and front frame. What else counts? Certainly not the owner’s view.

 

Well worded reply. You do realise you cannot win either way.

 

Really?

I read it twice and frankly couldn't understand it. Seemed rather incoherent to me but I haven't had my coffee yet so perhaps my mind isn't working well yet.

What's it say?

 

Are you suggesting that this is the behavior and evidence that will sway you? It makes more sense now.

 

Well ... But any comments on Mr Forghieri’s statement, which seems to be slightly clearer?

 

I will simply point to statements that MF signed for Jim G and for Steve and say that they are inconsistent. Not saying that MF doesn't know what he is doing but perhaps he is trying to make everyone happy, which is a great trait however when Jim and Steve are at crossed purposes the inconsistent statements are at least very unhelpful. As for Rob, moving it or not moving it is used as evidence for certain theories and it is no such thing, for it is a semantic point, the only proof is in the metal and even if every trace of #0846/ DP0003 was removed from the internet it would not change what it is. Steve makes a very plausible case that there is no single part of the current entity that matches #0846 so one could assume that the car is a David Piper car that is loosely based on a P4 but moving the thread to the replica section doesn't prove that it is a DP built car in the same way keeping it in the current section doesn't prove its the real #0846, that would be my 2 cents worth.