Rock 'n Stroll . . . The Stroller Thread.

Well said!

 

In Lance's defense, I understand that Rossi's father was very similar. I'm told that the first day he showed up to the Skip Barber series, his father introduced him as a future F1 driver to everyone he met. Kind of weird; obviously tough on a kid.

I don't know how good Rossi is either personally. He's on the cusp of fighting with the top guys in Indycar, but has yet to really break through despite the 500 win. Certainly his career has been more patient and calculating - he has put in the time and works extremely hard.

 

Exactly.He is getting stuck in ,that car is very fast ,the best of the rest right now i think.If he can get a couple of good points finishes and can calm down a bit he might still surprise a few folks.

 

True, but he was financed by a rich backer from a young age ... I assume a little after he was, as you say, fishing used tyres out of bins to participate. Also MS did have parents that owned a karting track; he must have done millions of laps ...
Pete

 

IIRC his dad was a simple worker and took on another job at the kart track to support his racing, but never actually owned the track. Michael and Ralf bought the track later on I think.

 

U are right Bas, Michaels dad never owned the track until Michael started making money

 

At first sight the costs are somewhat similar but in the US you have more sponsorship money available.

Also, where the difference is higher, and it makes a hell of a hole on any father's finances is karting. Kids in Europe usually start racing "professionally" with 8 years old. Until they can start racing on cars (16 years), they would have spent something in the region of +500,000 euros. That's way more than in the USA.

He do have hunger to win and he is in someway "talented", he is just not on par with Ocon/Verstappen/etc.

I bet he would be a good LMP or DTM driver.

That's true. But it was his choice and that of his father. I'm 99% sure that they tried to mimic specifically Verstappen's career trajectory.

I have met both... But that would be a long post...

 

Thanks for the info - much appreciated!

Yes, I agree on karting. I have no karting background, but did race FF with one of our best young karters here in the US. He was a factory driver for one of the biggest European teams. But that is exactly what his dad told me - he would have liked to keep him in karting for another year or two (14 at the time), but he couldn't match the budgets of the other top drivers. He said his main competition were spending 1m a year on karting. I was shocked as this was early in my motorsports career and had no idea.

Good point about the age for cars. You can start racing cars here at 14. There are a number of 14/15 year olds in F1600/F2000/F4 here actually.

 

There are tons of karting dads who like to blame things on "others who can afford more" or even better, others who have more success because they cheat or are favored in some way. There is no other way little Jonny would be beat otherwise. You can spend a kings ransom competing at the national or international level in karting, but 1m per year sounds like an exaggeration to me. Bang for the buck, karting is way more affordable than car racing.

The further up the ladder you go, the costs rise exponentially. If this father is telling you that they are moving up to save money, I'd quit taking him seriously. On a whole, my experience is that it will cost you slightly to significantly more to climb the racing ladder in Europe than it would in the US. To me, one big difference is that in Europe, motorsport is much more highly regarded than the US.

In the states, we just have so many more sports and activities that are important to major sections of people. The companies and businesses that have the required advertising budgets have many more choices on how and where to invest their monies. Racing just doesn't rank as high in our more diverse landscape.

The two continents also have different attitudes, Europe is more nationalistic than the United States melting pot. Its more common to find European companies who wish to support a driver or team from their own nation as a means to show national support or dominance over a neighboring nation. I equate it to something like the college rivalries here in the US. I'm sure that even Gene Haas isn't using his machine tool company as a source of US pride and support to sponsor his F1 team with. He does it to write off a good portion of the money the team is ingesting at turbo velocity.

 

Well this is one of the most winning and well know karters from the US, so he wasn't losing. He was beating people with much larger budgets - internationally. The issue, as I understand it, was continuing to spend big money to stay at the top. That's why I took it seriously. If it were some mid-pack kid, then I would have assumed the same as you - it was an excuse.

I definitely agree though that there are a lot of people that like to blame budget, or a variety of other reasons, for their kids not being able to win. I definitely hear that a lot in motorsports.

On the other hand, a friend of mine was a multi-time WKA champion. However, before he got a factory ride, he couldn't break the top 20 in his class nationally. So budget certainly matters. But I don't pretend to be an expert on karting.

In addition, Flavio confirms the rough numbers in Europe. ~500k+ he is saying for karting in Europe. That is more money than F4; or even the USF2000 - which is on the undercard to Indycar. And if that is the average, there are always those that spend 2x/3x the budget if they can to get an advantage.

 

I'm also skeptical about the 500K figure (let alone the million). The engine's aren't expensive, they're 2 stroke so cheap to maintain (pistons cost **** all, and there's only one of them), sure, better funded kids have can do more running and have a spare engine or 2 available for a quicker swap and more new tires available to them...

And it being so much more expensive than F4, 3x as expensive as Formula BMW (we're talking the 500K figure here, not the utterly bizarre million), hell you can pretty much do European F3 for that money!

For the Million you're in a GP3 team, if you're talented enough you'd be knocking on the door of GP2 for that...Something doesn't add up.

Not saying you can't spend a 500K or a Million karting, that's easy. New tour bus, 5 star hotels, small army of personal karts...hookers and champagne. But I'm convinced it can be done for a hell of a lot less, and I have to agree with Banzai that the ''so and so is spending a milli'' is a pretty convenient excuse.

 

LOL @ hookers and champagne for kids. I honestly do not get the math either. I'd like to hear Flavio break it down as well. But this is something I have heard from a number of credible sources. Shrug.

Like I said; I'm not an expert on karting. Not sure what they are spending so much money on.

On the other hand, a US F4 car is only around 53k w engine. It needs no rebuilds. You can easily spend over 300k on a season though w testing. Run that plus usf2000 and you can get close to a million w testing in a year. I assume the same kind of math applies for karts. A lot of these kids run multiple classes as well.

 

Regardless of actual cost, if someone can't afford the cost to keep up, moving up to the next level will only multiply the same problem. There are differences in equipment or the preparedness of the equipment even in "spec" series. At some point, every driver will suffer or succumb in inferior equipment or in a team with less technical depth.

Without family money or some source of finiancial support that believes in a driver, the odds are stacked supremely against them to ever gain the necessary experience or exposure to be able to prove themselves worthy to climb the ladder.

It's a well known saying that the majority of the best driving talent remains on the sidelines. Anyone who believes that talent alone will guarantee a shot at the brass ring is kidding themselves. This isn't the 60's anymore, racing is big business and ultra expensive. Without the funding, the goal becomes unachievable and the fruit dies on the vine before it gets picked.

 

Even 300K I find a mindblowing figure for what is a cheap spec series...The wings are uncomplicated and spec, and I know that difference in material for fibreglass and carbon fiber isn't all that much, nor is the process really (carbon takes a little longer). Tires are cheap (presumably the biggest expense though), some brakes. Entry fees aren't *that* high. I just struggle to think/understand where it all goes!

IMO entry level racing could and should be made a lot cheaper. Discussion for another thread though, which i'll create shortly.

 

Karting and lower formula are very competitive, hence they require lots of money; plus you need lots of spares.

Read Niki Lauda's biography. Yes it is old but it will only have got more competitive.
Pete

 

Coaches, crew chiefs, buying multiples of the same thing and testing them all to find the best. It is really not that hard. I live in a "racing capitol", so I see what goes on.

Of course, the thing is, the pro team's scouts can tell a fast driver from a fast kart, so those trophies aren't as meaningful in moving up in the racing world, but the family may think more of them. So long as a kid has baseline competitive equipment, and is a true talent, they will likely get noticed even if not winning.

 

Cool - create it! I'll share what I know. I was shocked too personally when I sat down to do my budget.

 

Good points also on identifying talent. Although there are definitely cases where no great interest is taken until the kid has distinguished him/herself in cars.

 

Michael Schumacher owed his career to Willi Weber who sponsored him very early on and became his manager. He did the same for Ralph.

 

I did not say it's ~500k per year!! I said that, by the time a kid starts driving formula cars, his/her father would had spent "plus $500k" during his karting career.

I can give you an actual figure: let's get for example a 14-old driver at OK or OKJ class. For a race event (ie, a weekend) such as one of the races of the European karting championship, an average racing team will charge 10k euros. A top team, such as Tony Kart or Ricky Flynn, will charge you 12-14k. If the kid does 10 of such events per year, you are talking around 100k-140k per year, NOT INCLUDING flights, hotels, coaches, etc., Also, the top teams will test prior to the races, which costs around 2000-3000 per day. On the other hand, an 8 year old kid running at the Mini class will spend less, probably 60% of that figure.

Anyway, another thing that I would like to add to the discussion about why motorsport is more expensive in Europe, is competitiveness. Whether in karting or in formulas, in Europe there is a lot of more testing between races, which increases costs heavily.

 

I clarified that on the above post.

As in most of motorsport series, karting included, the acquisition cost of equipment is the least of your worries. What's more expensive is race preparation, engine tuning, transport, labor, parts, etc.

A 2 stroke go-kart racing engine costs around 3000 euros tu buy BUT the best tuners will charge you a lot of money to rent you one.

 

I found this old pic on my phone. Guess who?
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So, on the topic of budget, how much would stroll senior have had to spend to get mini Stroller from earliest days of karting through to f1? Ball park.

 

tree fitty

 

Gotcha - I stand corrected.

Thanks! So does it follow, that if said kid runs 2-3 classes he might be spending 2-3x that figure?

Interesting point. Last year in US F4 testing was unlimited. This year we are limited to 7 pre season test days and 5 in-season. Not sure what the deal is in Europe for all classes. This is why you see a lot of the ultra-affluent kids testing or racing in multiple series - their parents have a larger budget than the testing limitations allow them to spend.