The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Oh indeed I had...

...

 

Basically his most recent position on the car and its post mortem life this newest revelation of testing and modification etc...

Not only confirms that Jim agrees with Steves assesment


but

also agrees that what Jim has been saying for the last 10 or so years as evidence is more or less... irrelevant or... hogwash if you will...

So he has acknowledged all previous claims as fact are now erroneous and "erased" due to the modifications of this new testing... the claim of the engine etc... now acknowledged as an F1 motor all justified etc...


ha ha ha ha...

correct me if I am wrong... but doesn't Jims new position mean... steve is right... jim decades worth of evidence or defense etc... are now wiped clean and now we just have this wild story about an old wrecked chassis serving as a test mule for a completely new format of racing?

This "new life" for 0846 that Jim is now talking about is completely undocumented and essentailly refuted by other factory works involvement. Also... ferrari never brought this up?

come on...

This fishing legend is really starting to stink

 

Trying to be as much open minded as I can: has anyone ever saw a picture of Ferrari testing a race car in the pre-1974 Mugello circuit?
If the answer is yes could this person please share it with us?
Many thanks.

 

I am not at all saying the new angle is true.

But like everything else it is just cast off if it does not fit the desired narrative. Without really looking into if there could be a possibility.

I also find it hard to believe that Napolis is just throwing this out there to keep the thrill alive.

Sure, he made wrong assumptions. This is not some game that came with a playbook. He is not some oracle. Wrong or right, at a point he thought he found 0846 and those were the clues that led him to believe it was. Just as your understanding of your perspective has changed with new information, his is allowed to also.

Like I said, Steve has a very myopic viewpoint of this case. There is no time spent being open minded to any other possibilities if they don't lead to discrediting the chassis as #0846.

 

Please Vincent the juror, do you really think there was an (unknown) identical twin who had a key to his apartment? Who had mistakenly his wallet on him? The flashbacks keep occurring...

 

First off... I want to say... even though you and I have opposing views... I appreciate that you are still here. I know some are not a fan... but I think when dealing with issues/problems/whathaveyou if you are a yes... you need to go find someone who is a no and listen to the no and why. If you are a no you need to listen to the yes. It is NEVER good to put yourself in the echo chamber.

I welcome the "challenger"

While I agree with you that he is not an "oracle" unfortunately due to his selfpromotion... he is seen as one. He may have not asked for it but he has certainly warmed up to the role taking interviews nonstop as well as making posts about filling the daytona winner with fuel.

I would agree with much of your post up until about a year ago... now he has clearly seen the evidence against him and now he is changing his tune.

I would like to think that he wouldn't be making things up to continue the story line... it is really hard to believe that he would...im with you but I find this most recent relevation very... uhhhh... interesting at best and suspicious at worst.

So we have a decade and countless interviews and traveling all over the world to car shows being presented as 0846 for these reasons and now with current evidence... all that is wiped clean and now we have this new weird unheard of undocumented test. When we were supposed to believe and taking everything he said before at his word... he completely wiped it all out... and now we are basically getting the... don't look over there... I know I told you to look over there... but now... look over here... nope nope... don't look back... look here stay with me here... stay looking over here.

Steves myopic view may have a flaw but it has with 100% certainty been the right thing and uncovering all of the evidence. You have to go through this step by step. First is countering the original argument... now that it has been successfully been disputed and even virtually accepted by both parties about what its not... now we can look into other possibilities.

I would say that has already started. It shouldn't be that difficult... all we need to do is find out actual evidence of these tests taking place. Again... burden of proof is to say that it took place NOT... provide proof it didn't happen.

PROVIDE PROOF IT DID HAPPEN (not directed at you VV just saying in general)

It shouldn't be that difficult.
After all where did he get that information?
It has never once come up before. He was finite in his findings previously... so why didn't come up before. Lets see it.

Again... Im hoping im wrong... and I want jim to have 0846... Im just lately stuck shaking my head about the whole thing. This thing keeps getting stranger and stranger.

Almost 1 year ago Jim said... "things to come soon" or whatever...

The only thing that we have now is a completely discredited previous theory of why the car was 0846

 

The above several posts are very much why this thread should not be closed.

With regard to the latest input from JG about his car's resurrection and testing, where is the evidence/documentation of this?

If the factory tested that car as he indicates, there would be drivers, mechanics, etc and pictures and documented testing results...

 

s/n 0842 in 1967. Practice for the Mugello GP. Gunter Klass hit a tree and died, car destroyed.
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Photograph of the wrecked #0842.
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Another photograph of the wrecked #0842.
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Thanks NEP and bigodino but I too have pictures of Ferraris racing at the Mugello GP (a 412P in '67 for example) but in my previous post I meant testing, NOT racing. I have many pics of 60s tests in Modena or Monza but never saw any of that decade taken to a Ferrari at the Mugello old circuit.
Gab

 

Mugello being a rather lengthy true road course would be a very strange place to test a car. Ferrari had other circuits they could of tested at that would have given them plenty of data.

 

Interesting, thank you. Probably one of the best informed newspapers in period was the Swiss Automobil-Revue/Revue Automobile with direct access to Ferrari over Robert Braunschweig as Enzo’s confidant. Weekly published in German and French, AR was a quality publication with contributors like Adriano Cimarosti, Paul Frère, Bernard Cahier and many others. Over Braunschweig and Cimarosti, Automobil-Revue was considerably focused on Italy and all activities of Ferrari. They got primarily informed and reported weekly (!) about just everything connected with Ferrari.

But here the same: not the slightest trace in AR of any P4 mule tests in Mugello. Check here: [https://www.zwischengas.com/de/archiv/ar/index.xml, https://www.zwischengas.com/faksimile/AR-Zeitung-Nr-33-1967-vom-27-Jul-1967-Seite-9/f8c94975-70a5-446f-a99d-20b4c91b242d.pdf?context=assetFB. The theory is simply ridiculous and unproven. Works P4 mule tests on public roads in Tuscany? Far away from Maranello although fast roads, the Autodromo and the Abetone are just in front of the factory? Complete nonsense.

 

+1

 

I say wrong. Cars like 0846 did test at Mugello and there is recorded history of that. The fatalities from testing on open public roads ultimately ended the road race. But 0846 probably never tested there because it was destroyed after Le Mans 67 and written off by Ferrari. But if evidence says otherwise, let's see it.

 

Could you please show us this "recorded history"? Many thanks in advance.
I have the honor and privilege to be able to talk to Ing.Forghieri via email sometime and two days ago I asked him about this "Mugello testing theory", even though I believe that what Mr.Glickenhaus states about #0846 "racing life" AFTER the LM67 events is TOTAL RUBBISH.
That's what I asked to Ing.Forghieri:

"Buongiorno Ing. Forghieri,
vorrei porle una domanda che mi assilla da qualche tempo e che una persona che conosco mi ha posto: siete mai stati a fare dei test, con la Ferrari, nel tracciato del Mugello PRIMA che esistesse il circuito attuale, quindi prima del 1974?
So che esisteva un percorso stradale sede di gare a metà degli anni '60 e mi chiedevo se una 330P4 vi fece delle prove nel 1967."

Translation:
"Good morning Ing.Forghieri,
I would like to ask you something that’s in the back of my mind for quite some time, that a person I know asked me about: have you and Ferrari ever been at the Mugello circuit for testing, BEFORE the actual circuit was built, so before 1974?
I know that there was a road circuit in which they raced during the mid-‘60s and I was wondering if a 330P4 was brought there for testing during 1967."

Here's the reply from Ing.Forghieri:
"Non posso esserne certo, questo nel rispetto della persona che lei conosce, ma non mi sembra. Forse era una 250 P.
Forghieri"

Translation:
"I can’t be sure, this because I respect the person you know’s opinion, but I don’t think so. Maybe it was a 250P.
Forghieri"

One could think whatever he wants, to me this case is closed.
Gab

 

Where?

But the relevant question is here, if such 'tests' where made in Mugello from Ferrari with a 'works p4 mule 0846' in the late Sixties.

 

Ing.Forghieri said that such tests never happened.
Can't think of a better "recorded history" about it.
Gab

 

Really?

Your own posts tells a different tale...

 

Are you trolling or what?
He remembers no P4 tests but maybe a 250P.

 

while I agree with you and think the tale of post mortem testing is a complete fairy tale...

What VV is trying to say... is Ing. Forgheri statement isn't very definitive.

Im not an attorney but I have seen Night Court a couple of times and if he went on the stand I would tear that to shreds because there is wiggle room.

But yes... he said he doesn't remember any P4 but maybe a 250p. So broken down that would mean ZERO chance of P4... and if they did run something then a 250p.


but if you are in the pro 003 is 0846 camp... you are going to try to say that the statement isn't clear enough...

SOLUTION...

Ask for clarification in a non leading manner.

While you are at it. Ask him if Jims story makes any sense and is it possible or was the car like he said for all these year written off after the fire.


(if true... 0846 true identity might be a cat... this thing has had so many lives... p3... a p4 conversion... wrecked written off... revived into some sort of test mule??> (all of a sudden) thrown back into the scrap heap.... then taken by piper or chassis builders all to come back to life as a P4 replica... then some how morph back into the real long lost 0846) This car deserves a movie... At this point its movie would need to be a series... It would resemble more of Fast and Furious franchise than the "CARS" franchise... LOL

Hey id watch it... Jim is/was a film maker after all...

 

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

It will always be interesting to learn new facts but it seems that this thread is constantly diverted by the esoteric arguments of a small number of posters, who either ignore proven fact or disproportionately depend on speculation or emotion.

Another long-winded and emotional thread benefited enormously from the clear thinking analysis of an uninvolved lawyer (an FChat member). Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to cut through the waffle posted here and summarise the arguments once more!

 

That's what I understood, that's what he meant.

 

Going back to the metal as such, can we just clarify what is known in relation to the chassis as it currently stands.

Jims original hypothesis was that as the car he bought from Piper had the option of mounting two different types of engine, and on that basis he presumed that the only P car Ferrari built that potentially had that option was 0846 as it started life as a P3 and was converted to be the first of the P4s hence his chassis may have actually originally been that of 0846 and his quest to prove thus started.

Now from Steves research it would seem that the chassis Jim purchased was actually originally built for Piper to P4 plans all along (not those of a p3) and was first made to house a ???? spec engine and was later converted whilst still with Piper to then run the 3 litre F1 engine block that is currently fitted to the car.

So the vestigal engine mounting set up as currently found within the frame of Jims car is to neither correct p3 or p4 engine spec? i.e neither engine would simply bolt in to those locations? as although the holes may line up in some places, there would be gaps between mounting points on the engine blocks and the chassis for either spec of engine.

MF confirmed that Ferrari in period would not have left vestigal mounting points anyway when they turned the original 0846 from a p3 to a p4 but instead would have chopped out the sections of the chassis where the old mounts were, and built a new set of tubes solely to mount the P4 spec engine (something I also stated many years ago when I first entered this discussion)

With this recent evidence now in place, Jim has dropped the claims that the vestigal mounts were from the time when 0846 was converted from p3 to p4 spec engine but instead is now saying they relate to a time when 0846, post its Le Mans crash was again converted, this time to be used as a mule to test a 3 litre engine, hence the less than optimal method used in the engine mount conversion, a hasty, make do mod as such? Again though if a p4 engine block wont mount directly into his chassis still, then this theory does not have legs either?

He has however to date not identified where he found out such information of a post Le Mans life for the original heavily damaged 0846? and no one had ever heard such either until Jim made the claim on facebook?

This still leaves the fact that Jims chassis has a p4 brake reservoir set up rather than the p3 one that the original 0846 had retained post conversion by Ferrari to P4 spec?

Is the above correct? well apart from confirming what actual engine the chassis was originally made for Piper as shown by my ????

 

THIS