Another reason how analog Enzo-era Ferraris are different.

At this point it doesn't bother me anymore.

10 years ago I would have puked. Today... meh.

Lambo made one. No one complained.

 

I think the binary Enzo Era vs. Luca Era distinction is a tired argument in some ways. I'm as sensitive as anyone when it comes to preserving and celebrating history, but I'm also cognizant of the ways changing context can impact perception. I think the dissension around the 550 is a perfect example of this.

Coming out of the 80's era-of-excess, the 550 was labeled as boring, bland, uninspired. The context was Testarossa & Countach, peak lapels & big hair. The baby boomers were hitting their stride and embracing gauche opulence - and under those auspices, that categorization made sense.

Today, in the year 2017, compared to the 550, we've moved into a hyperbolic technological context with the flagship V12 in the 812. Context has changed, dramatically, and that has changed my perception of the 550 significantly. It identifies much, much more with preceding front engine V12s than it's successors - both in experience and design; I believe that is the changed context that supports the recent perception that "the 550 is analog." It is devoid of computer screens, F1, autoCAD design, space-age plastics, etc.

The technology curve is exponential. As that manifests in cars like Ferrari, it doesn't take 40 years to develop a vintage-esque experience (which some said was bland in 1998, I find charming and engaging in 2017). Thinking about a 550/575 jumping from 599 and F12 in just two generations is a mind-boggling departure, let alone in just 15 years, where-as it took 25 years - 67% longer - to launch the 550 from the end of Daytona production. I think a paradigm shift is in-the-works and Luca era Ferrari's are delivering the old school experience at a fraction of the cost and at multiples in reliability.

The binary distinction has moved from "Enzo | Luca + Marchionne" to "Enzo + Luca | Marchionne." Enzo + Luca has a grey area that has developed in the last 15 years. I think the people who are ahead-of-the-curve are able wrap their heads around the increasing rate that context is changing.

-Joe

 

Please no. Bad enough they make the **just station wagon.

I have a t-shirt from years ago with a picture of the 550 and the 355 (Current models at the time), along with the cavallino rampante. It says, "We will never build an SUV." I thought that was perfect, what separated them from Porsche, that they still had some sense of who they were unlike Porsche.

What comes after an SUV? A diesel that they put in the SUV and then the FF like Porsche did with their SUV and then the Panamera?

 

Win

 

Brunette or blonde... Horses for courses... clothes to match the evening/occasion....
There's no point saying one is better than the other. Enjoy the different experience 'classic' cars bring vs. modern. I've had older 911s to a GT3, BMW 2002, Corvette C2, modern and old mercedes, etc etc. Sure there is more 'character' in the older cars as there is no electrics between driver and car, but when you're headed to a bus stop at Watkins Glen at over 150mph with another driver next to you playing chicken, you want the reliability and technology that things will work as planned.... Or finding a valet a fine restaurant leaving your classic up front over newer ones to their chagrin... Horses for courses.

 

Really interesting post, thanks.

of course if we take your logic to its conclusion the future ferrari is auto drive electric powered.

 

I dont think you know your ferrari history. Ferrari only ever made road cars to make money so he could race more. He had to sell because racing and arrogance(lamborghini) gobbled up all the profits and there was the matter of impeding regs which small manufactuers had trouble meeting without the engineering staff of a large company. Same thing happened at maserati.

In fact most of the cars ferrai made were luxury Gts and 2+2's, yes we remember the TDF and 250swb they are pinncale road/track cars from the period but ferrari built very few. Ferrai did not cater to or appease enthiusiasts, most of its cars were aimed at the wealthy looking for comfort and some latent speed, as now.

The difference is when ferrai raced other than F1 like lemans and other more road car relevent series they made some superlative road cars.

Hate to tell you this, but your 924 was total crap from stem to stern, it was an audi discard. The significantly evolved 944 was a much better bet especialy in turbo and they had power steering.

Lotus struggles because it only makes hard core cars. No none said ferrai should only make cars like this, only that they should make some. If you can try an eilse for a few days. Despite its crudenss of build, its bucket of bolts sounding engine youll find that evrything works from a driving perspectibve as it should, thats the goal others should strive for, without the drawbacks.

No you cant get a ford Gt, know why, because every one they can make all 2500 of thse raw machines(which only the sanctimonious like) are spoken for by people who more or less had to prove to ford that they are not flippers, they are long term owners and that they use the cars as designed. If fords vetting is remotely accurate well see a lot more ford Gts at the track than ferraris,not hard because maybe I see one per year.

Now lets look at the prior ford Gt, a modern car imbued with classic cues from styling to stick to evrything, the best of all worlds. What does the 2005 ford Gt sell for today vs its list, or a period ferrari 430. Why do these fords sell for such prices when they are more raw drivers cars, because thyere great cars, and great to drive, not flash in the pan bieber limos.

There is a difference between old tech and raw. The Viper was all old tech/crude it didnt sell. the 997 Gt3 and Gt4 are modern but still raw.

BTW how many GT3s and Gt4s sell in year to "Sanctimonious self proclaimed "enthusiasts"
Know what the price is for a 997.2 GT3 or Gt3Rs, way above what they were new, whats the price on the same period ferrari, in fact you'd have to pay more to get the porche now, why is that.

One reason is that while porche makes plently of 991 doctors expresses, they find good buisness and brand affirmation in building Gt3s and GT4s. In fact how come the 911R was so sold out, how come the stick is making a return to the Gt3, makes it slower you know.

Heres my point.

Most people buy ferrari or porches as life/sucess afirmations. They love having all that latent ability in car theyll never use. They love showing up in it, they love what the badge represents to others and a feeling of owning racing history no matter how tenuous, and they like driving a bit fast but well within the limits of the machine. Some even live for a putter to a concors or C&C. For all intents and purposes most ferrais are essentialy high status badge lexus coupes.

YET
There are other owners out there. People who are the hard core driver/machine enthisiasts. For these people ferrari was a pinncale decades ago, probably this year its the performante.
These people look for a car that will be entertainign on a sunday romp at semi sane speeds, and because its the 21st century they will excercise the car to the limit on track, and expect it to hold up there and not be ruinous to run, they find mileage a badge of honor not a value depreciator, but life enhancer. Ferrai conspicuously does not make such a car.. La Ferrai is certainly not it, the TDF may be, but then as you say these are unobtanium and so expensive to run on track its irrelevant. Fearri used to make enough cars like this, now essentialy none.

One does not have to exist to the exclusion of the other, thats what porche discovered, both are markets/clients for diffrent reasons.


Yes ferrari is sucessful, but porche is more so and more durably so. Ferrais now mostly sell to a fickle crowd who buy the machines for reasons of status and presentation. They buy the machines off the cred from a back catalog and clever marketing tying the car to F1. Like you I laugh at their ability to tell wealthy to stand in line and prostrate themselvs. Thats all good for now. But it also means ferrari is increasingly an inauthentic brand, and that does not bode well for the future.

Somewhere ferrari would do well to make a more simple raw fully "modern" car for car people, and in enough numbers relative to the enthusiast driver population that we can buy and use it. Such a car wont be their fastest on paper but it will do their brand cred great as people see it being used as god and enzo ineytded, and the rest of us wont be defaulting to other manufactuers. Perhaps thats where ferrari will find that extra 2k units to sell... For while I admire porches enginering and product savy, I like italian cars over all others and ferrari means a whole lot more to me than brand status, paper numbers, F1 and schlocky clothing..

Sooner or later they will rediscover the path of righteousness, and yes they'll still make fortunes selling plastic sheilds on red over tan auto tranny Gts to everyone else. BTW I find of all the various types of ferrari owners, most are individualistic, sucessful and interesting, its great group to meet up with regardless of why they own the car or what they do with it. We're all in this together no matter how we come to it..

 

Why not a new car that does the best of both? I thought the 997 Gt3 pretty much did that in the porche universe.

 

Late to this discussion. Here's my two bits:

What were the last Ferrari designs approved by Enzo? The 348 and Testarossa had side strakes and rectangular tail lights behind a grill. Granted, these features may be as stylish and relevant as a Nagle painting, but I like to believe that the ever forward-thinking old Enzo happily signed off on them before he died. Did Enzo ever lay (shaded) eyes on a 355? Technological advancements aside, would he have been okay with the retro look of round tail lights?

I know, inconsequential stuff, but I still wonder...

 

I am too. I replaced my 2015 GT-R which was a sheer speed appliance with a Banzai Racing built 1993 RX-7 in Silver Stone with rare factory red full leather interior and street legal tires. I daily drive the RX-7 it to work getting 12-14mpg every chance I get. It's 600hp, 2700lbs, no power steering, no abs, no a/c, loud (85dB in the cabin), stiff, low, and absolutely electrifying. I have driven it more in a month than the GT-R in a year. It runs a little too cold temp wise even while daily driving in 80F deg weather but I can give it the beans the whole day and not miss a beat.

A younger friend said to me me today, actually, you love your two year old Subaru STi but you seem to want to drive every other car you have instead. If I had to explain it, you wouldn't get it. Bad weather or dirt is what the STi was bred for and kept for. Completely stock, worry free driving for all elements.

I agonize over the merits of the 355 and 430. My fear is the 430 F1 will be just like the GT-R, fast, friendly, and missing something with a chassis too far leaning towards a GT. In fact, the higher up the chain you go into supercar territory the worse I think this problem becomes. The extra 100k, or more for a gated 430 vs the 355 is hard for me to justify when I want more variety in the garage. Gated shifter, go kart and that pricey to run sound compared to a 430 F1 with headers, exhaust and tune and a newer interior. It is a serious dillema with the gate and having fun while being slow always finding its way back to the table.

 

I think the last car ferrai approved, to the extent he had apporval rights on road cars was the F40, at least its partialy his baby. The testatrossa is really a mechanicaly evolved Boxer, designed to be exportable to the USA. Much of the styling solutions found on the Tr were dictated by modifyign the platform to meet legislation in USA and the need to move the radiators to the rear so that the Ac would work. The big side intakes for the radiators then required the chezze grater startked to meet rules about the size of openings.

The 348 must have good bones because it evolved into the 355. Some prefer the later sorted 348s to drive over the 355 because it had a durable engine and no power steering.
To me the 348 styling is just TR light, trying to capture some of the glory from the Tr.

Some interesting tidbits, the Boxer was one of the first cars for which Luca was responsible for development along with his work on the F1 team. Luca also has said the car of which he is most proud in a way is the 355 because they acheived so much in terms of speed/dynamics and market sucess with so little budget and an existing platform.

Love him or not Luca saved Ferrari as a viable concern, and made it the financial sucess it is today. He did so by making "useable" cars and with marketing. No issue with that, pity they needlessly abandoned their core customers in the process.

Maybe sweater man will bring us some good things, like a new Dino that has the attributes some of us admire.

 

Theoretically! I think the curve will flatten again as we near the limits of production, regulatory/emissions environment, etc.

That said, it's not out of the question that Ferrari pivots to enhance shareholder value if high performance road cars are restricted in some way for whatever reason (just send me to mars if that ever happens).

-Joe

 

Ditto. Just swapped my daily from a double-clutch '14 S4 to a manual '02 911 Turbo. Not quite as extreme as the above, but a total reversion to what satisfies me day-to-day.

 

I agree. I think the F360 will be Ferrari's 911. It was not a race car, nor was it meant to be one. Those of us who have a little experience on the track are not looking for a street-level race car. We just want a fun car to drive that doesn't spend all its time in the shop.

I was taking a break from Ferrari Chat when this went down. What was the backstory? Just the typical corporate greed?

 

Sergio wants and needs to grow sales and profit in his crown Jewel ferrari.
One easy profit growth is the special cars like laferrari and the TDF. The TDF being an essentialy evolved F12 for a few hundred K more. Laf was easy extra money, they just built the convertible version. We'll see more special versions and them built in a bit more volume. But while special versions are highly profitable they are also by defintion volume limited so they can only do so much profit growth there and low vloume still has development costs to amortise.

On regular cars, they are keen to sell as many extra Ct plastic sheild optiosn as possible, they cost pennies on the dollar, but thats not new.
The 2+2s dotn really sell well.


Sergio has said the the Cali is not really what he thinks of when he thinks of what a ferrari
should be. If they are not going to sell calis and even if they do, they still want to get to 10k units how is that going to happen.

Well more special editions and probably another product. For sure they're working on expanding the v8 mid engined product range of the same platform, maybe there will be a cheaper car and a more expensive one in this range, kinda like Mclaren does. Rumnors are of a Ttv6 on the 488 platform.

What gives me hope for some raw ferraris is Sergios sattements about the Cali, his statement that he wont do a V12 turbo which means he gets it.

They have the 4c platform and Alafa TTv6. So can Ferrai do enough volume and make profit on a 200k car utilizing existing bits, because thats how accountant Sergio thinks, and will this car be a true ferrari not like the cali because thats also how sergio thinks.

Lets also not forget that Segio rebirthed the Viper and has given us the Hellcat and Gulia. While he is an accountant by trade and temprement he does know fast cool cars and he is into profit.

Interstingly over at ford while focus sales are nosediving focus RS sales are climbing fast. Viceral performance sells, Sergio knows this, or at least I am being an eternal optimist..
He needs and wants to grow ferrari without brand dilution. The ferrari version of aGt4 has got to have crossed his radar. Ie somethign on paper lesser than the 488(911) but in so many ways better for a driver. the tyoe of car that attracts enthusiasts like moths to a flame.


In otehr words if they are not going SUV, and as the 2+2s are not big sellers, then they need to expand the sportscar offerign to more niches. Each platrom (like the 911s) can have versions from mild to wild. Going upstream is obvious, but then the dino and orgional 308s are also in their catalog and that gave them presence and volume.

 

My cut off is the carbs/injected split.

 

When Viper was in the $80K-$90K range, they sold "well enough".
When Viper moved to the $130K range, they sold "not well enough".

This implies that there is a base of enthusiasts that are willing to pay $80K for a raw bite-you-in-the-back sports car, but there are not so many that are willing to pay $130K for a refined bite-you-in-the-back sports car.

 

911R sold really well and fetched huge premiums. 991 GT3 Rs was 180k maybe 200k with options and sold out and Fgt is what 400k. I dont think you can touch a used 997 Gt3rs4.0 for less than 350k.

The problem with the viper imo was not price point but its very crudeness, its was also like sitting in a pillbox and its engine despite the power sounded like crap, time just passed it by. There is difference between crude and raw. Even the 90k vipers didnt sell at the end thats why it took a hiatus.

 

Viper appealed to the "not vette" crowd. I wasn't too impressed when I got my ride in the latest GTS version. There just wasn't a buyer for it except "Viper guy". Small market for a modern muscle car.

I'd agree with you on the 911 pricing IF we didn't just emerge from a stupid 911 price runup. Don't conclude that the 911R will be driven! I suspect some of that is the current speculative bubble driving up prices on a special limited run model versus driver demand for a stick and raw experience.

 

I also drive a 93 Rx7. It has a 3 rotor NA motor, no ABS, an Atomic Rex manual rack, Banzai, diff and tranny braces, Ohlins, and other stuff. Incredibly focused and fun.

 

This is quite possibly the best post I have read on Fchat. Bravo sir for your passion, clarity of thought and eloquence. I agree wholeheartedly with absolutely everything you are saying.

I love the style, visceral intensity and looks of the older cars but not the safety, lack of performance and unreliability. I have found the new cars lacking but I understand and respect what Sergio is doing which is to grow profits at the behest of the owners and this is what Elkann and co want.

Sergio has already stated he will be expanding the range well beyond what we have now using the existing engines and platforms. He said this on a recent analyst earnings call, which are very interesting, at least for me. Whether these new cars will satisfy Boxerman and others like us remains to be seen but given the commitment to hybrid, the desire to expand in China and his intent to break through the 10,000 unit cap I suspect not unfortunately.

The solution could be a Ferrari restomod a la Singer or something similar, which I think would be wonderful.