918 vs CGT/Enzo/675LT/Tesla/Veyron | FerrariChat

918 vs CGT/Enzo/675LT/Tesla/Veyron

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Bill S, Apr 4, 2017.

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  1. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    #1 Bill S, Apr 4, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    Had a chance to drive a 918 in RACE mode. First impressions...

    1. At slow speeds, the car felt heavier than CGT or Enzo. I know it is (500 lbs+). The heavier weight seemed to translate into a smoothed-over feel. Motion in all directions felt "dampened". More like a Veyron, Tesla or even a Nissan GT-R.

    2. Low-end acceleration (under 3K) surprised me. It was strong, but not as strong as a Tesla. I expected it to be much stronger. But it was noticeably stronger than a 675LT.

    3. Throttle response was good, but not as good as the pure electric Tesla.

    4. As revs increased, car felt much stronger. Near 5K+ it was very powerful, much more than the CGT or Enzo and a bit more than the 675LT. Of course way faster than a Tesla at this point. You really can't keep it floored for more than a few seconds on the street unless you got plenty of straight space.

    5. Almost brainless to drive. Just point, floor and use your fingers. No wheelspin or sideways action. Just like a Veyron or 675LT. Pretty hard to mess up. Almost like playing a video game. CGT and Enzo are far scarier and engaging, even though they're not as fast.

    6. Couldn't try turns too fast on the street. But the overall smoothness and confidence would surely make me much faster than the older cars.

    7. Didn't notice anything unusual happening when braking or accelerating. The engine and motors seemed to work well together with no noticeable switchover.

    8. The engine sound was WAY different than the CGT. Almost a "gurgling" sound at lower RPMs. Much smoother as RPM increased, but definitely a much "bassier" sound than the CGT or Enzo.

    After driving, I thought why couldn't they just keep enhancing the 959 or CS? Imagine 900 HP in those lightweight and compact bodies with their awesome visibility. Raise the suspension 6" and take it off road too. IMHO, who cares about aero and top speed for a street car. And the latest Porsche Cup car will always kill me on the track.
     
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  2. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    Interesting, thanks for your thoughts Bill.
     
  3. supermafy

    supermafy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2013
    346
    Rome (it)
  4. Murcielago_Boy

    Murcielago_Boy Formula Junior

    May 27, 2004
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    I think the extremely litigious nature of your countrymen, with specific reference to crashes in the Carrera GT, and, dare I say it, the modern phenomenon of driving ability and purchasing power being inversely correlated, means that they'll never build a hypercar as engaging as the CGT ever again.

    I think I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. I can't see the point of the modern era of hypercar to be honest. The systems do all the driving. Even in the LaFerrari. And the extreme performance is now utterly irrelevant all over the world - bragging rights for Internet forums. Pit a Cup Car on slicks against a 918 and the million pound motor will get destroyed around a track.

    If I want meaningless road performance without drama, Bugatti's products have yet to be beaten.
    If i want to enjoy driving, I'll pass on the 918/P1 and LaF - can someone give me a Carrera GT/F50, some of the greatest drivers cars of all time.
     
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  5. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
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    bill - will you get to drive the Chiron soon?
     
  6. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    You only have to turn the electronics off in the newer machines (especially the RWD ones) and then you are on your own, if that's your sort of thing. Racing cars are meaningless in this discussion; their tyres account for most of the performance differential anyway.
     
  7. Evan.Fiorentino

    Evan.Fiorentino F1 Rookie

    Aug 23, 2005
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    I thought your comments about the 675LT differed quite a lot from my experiences with them. It was not a car that immediately inspired confidence(for me at least)in the way an AWD highly advanced car like the 918 does IMO.

    I actually paired the 675LT into a much more "analog" type category where the CGT and the Enzo also reside.

    Just my opinion

    Evan
     
  8. Murcielago_Boy

    Murcielago_Boy Formula Junior

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    Realzeus - we love to argue! :)

    I'm afraid a lot of these modern machines are optimised around electronics and systems which intervene to remove the driver from the equation.This means when you switch off the traction/ASR etc you tend to get an uncontrollable b*tch of a car which will yield few thrills to non-professional drivers. What the electronics are doing, are masking underlying mechanical deficiencies AND acting as performance tool for bragging rights -they're no longer just a safety system for inexperienced/ brave drivers, which is IMO what they should be.

    Don't believe me? Drive an F12 with all the electronics off. It's woeful. Initial understeer, followed by problems relating to inadequate weight over the rear wheels/poor traction, and a load of weight transfer issues make it *nasty* to drive.

    You've said that racing cars are meaningless in this discussion but that's just not true. People are obsessed with track performance - just look at the importance given to lap times and ring times - see that 918/LaF/P1 thread. And if you want track performance, buy a track car - why waste your money on an electric system, which is what modern cars have become, designed to give a great lap time which yields an un-involving driving experience?
    You think the new Lambo Huracan's active aero means a DAMN thing to people on the road? But the ring time does which means track/racing cars come into play.

    To add to peoples misery, the ultimate performance of these cars is ONLY accessible with computer help - like the F12 TDF for example. Turn off the computers and the car is both unresolved, scary AND slower around a track. So a driver plays second fiddle to computers with respect to performance too.

    Thank you Bill for the review. I'll pass on the 918 - Make mine a Carrera GT and 911 Cup.
     
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  9. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    We love to argue, indeed. :)

    I beg to differ though. Electronics are not there to hide any kind of deficiency; they are there to capitalise on even more extreme mechanical set-ups. Like modern fighter jets that are inherently unstable in order to be more agile while letting the computer sort out the flight parametres that a human wouldn't be able to, supercars rely on their computers to translate the driver's orders into meaningful micrometric actions. As you said, when you take the electronics off, they tend to be more difficult to drive, not because they are more unresolved though, but because they are more aggressively set up. An F50 with the instant power delivery and sharp turn in of a LaFerrari would spin around on every corner! It would be very easy for all supercar manufacturers to produce rudimentary cars again, with less power, electronics and nimbleness. That's not progress though, that's remaining stuck in the '90s.

    Regarding race cars, not everyone is interested in having a specialised pit crew and having to go through all the hardships of driving something as extreme and tiring. Not to mention that they are track only tools, incapable of doing anything else. Also, let's not forget that race cars are merely extreme versions of lesser cars than the ones discussed here. Finally, all modern racing cars rely heavily on electronics and have dozens of settings for their various control systems.
     
  10. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Very true. The 488C has 16 TC options.......
     
  11. frefan

    frefan F1 Veteran

    Apr 21, 2004
    7,370
    I think big-power front engine and AWD cars need electronics a lot more than RWD. My turbo s will certainly spin without them on, but my 675LT is very easy and fun to drive with ESC OFF because it has such good balance. I often drice it that way on a regular basis. P1 in race mode also is ESC OFF and a little bit of a handful (most wheel spin) but otherwise not too difficult to drive that way.
     
  12. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
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    Agreed. I'd also throw in 993TT, CS and even 959. I'm a big fan of the 993/959 design.

    Maybe not soon. But I know a 918 owner that has. It makes the 918 feel like a toy in the acceleration department.

    Maybe. Many of these cars need the electronics to even work. Weight, tires and COG are also important factors. Some things you just can't do with a car that needs to operate amongst the public. Just look at an F1 car. I saw a new one peaking 6.5 Gs in the turns.

    Agreed with the 675LT. Not as confident as the 918. A bit more like the older cars. But the turbo lag and lack of low-end power was very noticeable. The engine power just seemed a bit unpredictable when heavy on and off the throttle compared to a NA car or even a Porsche turbo. But still very light and more fun IMHO than 918 if you're stuck with paddles.
     
  13. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    That's a pretty bold thing to say. 918/P1/LAF basically rewrote acceleration rule book when they came out. To think a Chiron is that much ahead is nuts. How much further can we realistically go with acceleration now I wonder.
     
  14. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    #14 Red Sled, Apr 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    These are arguments that assume faster equals better. Faster turn-ins, acceleration, more lateral g's etc, all made possible by use of electronics. And faster is indeed progress.

    However, if better means a more involved driving experience with a direct connection between man and machine, the driver nanny laden modern cars are broadly not.

    To take your aircraft example, the concept of relaxed static stability pioneered in the 80's has allowed aircraft with better performance but need computers to manage the fundamental instabilty. While the pilot broadly directs the plane, the various systems work out how to implement that direction - managing thrust vectoring, control surfaces, power etc. They are point and shoot. In effect the pilot has become a systems manager, albeit a highly trained and skilled one. The real "seat of pants" flying is done in aerobatic aircraft which are traditional in their controls but feature modern lightweight materials and engines. In effect, they are the Ariel Atoms of the sky. They cannot cruise supersonically like the latest fighters, but that's hardly relevant.

    This is why the last Ferrari I bought was the F50. The F12tdf is the only F-car since that has piqued my interest, and after a short track session with CT-off, while a lot of fun, I did not find it as natural in its dynamics as the earlier cars (question of inherent balance given front engine, big front tyres, 4WS, weight). It is a better driving experience with the driver aids turned on. To me, it represents a very different branch of progression of driving experience to the LaF, but one I suspect is a dead end.

    For those of us who want driver involvement and that man to machine connection, the future lies in track focused cars with rigid chassis made of lightweight composites, exceptional power-weight, modern tyres and where the only electronics are in engine management. Unfortunately, we may need to look beyond Ferrari for that.
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  15. s-mario

    s-mario Karting

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    Agree 100%!
     
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  16. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

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    agreed
     
  17. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

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    #17 TrojanHorse, Jun 1, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Indeed, the CGT is surely among the greatest analogue sports motor cars ever sold--and not just because of its BIG UNIT or since it truly takes big cajones and actual talent to drive it at pace...any one that has ever sat in one, ticked it over, and gone through the gear pattern with its 10 cyl sitting low screaming behind your ears, knows there is little to compare!

    But, analogue or not, there are other options similarly rewarding!
    Like the 599 GTO, which in today's world seems almost "analoguely brutal", or the 64 327 Corvette Sting Ray, which is best called nearly "pre analogue", and of course many others...like the other analogue fav--Porsche GT1.

    The most important point I've tried hard to remember is to enjoy driving any/all of them as often as possible...and to know to just have an opportunity to drive 1 of them, once, is fortune most will never be blessed to do!

    So,stay between the lines--except where there are rumble strips-- and try hard to drive each one of these special times like it may be your last...
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  18. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bill

    Have you had a chance to drive the LaF?
     
  19. nandofacchini

    nandofacchini Karting

    Sep 15, 2006
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    The GT1 in the picture is a real unicorn! I believe only a couple of these first generation 993-based cars were produced in road trim. Any more info on this particular car? I believe it is the one in Bahrain...
     
  20. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Correct.
     
  21. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    Second gen GT1's aren't exactly plentiful either lol. The GT1 is a beautiful car.
     
  22. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

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    Not yet. Have you? P1's on my list too.
     
  23. Twosherpaz

    Twosherpaz Formula Junior

    Feb 25, 2014
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    I am still trying to love my 918. The P1 and 675 and CGT and Enzo and CS and Scud took no such time. I realize it's a very unsophisticated review, but I think it speaks volumes.
     
  24. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    How long have you had the car? What exactly are you struggling with? How many miles have you done?

    I only ask because I've had similar experiences. Sometimes you just sell the car because you'll never enjoy it as much as you should. Sometimes it just "clicks" and you end up understanding/loving the car.
     
  25. Scuderia980

    Scuderia980 F1 Rookie

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    Um, actually no, it gives us very little insight into your programming. But sure, it must be rough if a 918 doesn't 'speak' to you, but those other ones do. Must be ROUGH!
     

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