Ferrari 348/Mondial T starting problems | FerrariChat

Ferrari 348/Mondial T starting problems

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Big Block F, Jun 25, 2017.

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  1. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    After having my 1991 Mondial T cabriolet laid up for the last ten or so years, I figured it was time to get tge old hirl running again.

    Initially change both fuel pumps and got the engine running on 1-4 side. Removed injectors and fuel rails, cleaned and serviced. 5 -8 side injectors completely blocked and not operating before service.

    Replaced fuel lines, filters and replaced fuel regulators (with Sard aftermarket type).

    Now have fuel pressure to 1-4 side (monitored with test light on turn over) and pressure in rail, have in injector pulse and spark. When turning over the engibe fires just a little but not enough to get going.

    I have sprayed starter fluid into inlet but really no difference.

    5-8 side has spark, injector pulse but no fuel, I suspect a failed crank sensor. I gave tried wiring the fuel directly from external source but no change, just tries to fire.

    What will stop the engine 1-4 side from actually starting? I am thinking the camshaft phase angle sensor?

    This is a motronic 2.5, with the single throttle position switch, same as early 348.

    Any suggestions
     
  2. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    Does anyone have any suggestions?
     
  3. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    I suspect you have multiple problems.

    Have you installed fresh spark plugs?

    Have you checked for a strong spark on both banks?
     
  4. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    +1 for new plugs, or clean the old ones with a propane torch.

    Injectors may need to be replaced.

    Do a compression check to make sure no valves are sticking open.
     
  5. ga68

    ga68 Karting

    May 22, 2014
    54
    Mulhouse - FRANCE
    Full Name:
    Gaëtan
    Hello, I may be saying a betise, but .. is there an alarm on this car, which would prevent the start?
     
  6. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2013
    622
    The Netherlands
    You say you have fuel pressure, but have you measured it, or concluded it?
    needs at least 40 psi I believe to start. The rubber inside the pump construction dissolves in gas after time...
     
  7. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    Thank you all for the ijput.

    Some progress.

    Changed plugs and leads etc.

    I have had the engine running buy poorly.

    I have good injector pulse to 1 to 4 side but now no spark to 1 and 4. 2 and 3 run and make the exhaust hot but as I said nothing out of 1 and 4.

    5 to 8 does not run, this I think is due to the crank angle sensor not providing power to the pump.

    What determines spark to 2 and 3 and more importantly to 1 and 4.

    I am thinking the each crank angle sensor provides input to 4 cylinder, 2 on each side. Would this be likely?

    What other sensors are there they may have input to ignition?

    I do have compression, fuel pressure and have replaced both pumps, new fuel filters regulators and cleaned out the black rubber boot that had disintegrated around each pump.

    All suggestions will be appreciated.
     
  8. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    After changing many components ftom left to right and right to left etc, I now have a car that starts as it should.

    Not quite there yet, after start up and idling for a minute or two, a lot of smoke (really rich, unburnt fuel smoke) comes out of the exhaust, I think mainly from the 1 - 4 side.

    What would cause this ultra rich mixture?

    Is there a sensor I need to be checking?
     
  9. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    #9 Big Block F, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I adjusted both MAFs, 1 - 4 was in the 900s, now set at 383. 5 - 8 was 312, now 383.

    Start up was fine, working well, after less than 2 minutes the clouds of white smoke began. The smoke smells of fuel, it is not steam.

    It would appear the start up cycle wotks wekk, then after dome initial basic warm up the smoke appears.

    If I let it sit and cool down a little, then on start up no smoke, after a minute or two, the smoke is back.

    Ideas please.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,630
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Tim Dee
    Did you check your oil level?

    Looks like oil smoke or anti freeze from that pic but I cant smell it from here, almost can thats a lot
     
  11. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Definately fuel, makes your eyes sting.

    Like I said, from cold it starts well, idles well then after a minute or two goes into heavy smoke mode. Restarting after initial start (i.e. a little warm) has it go straight to smoke.

    It is like there is a preliminary warmup (before coolant up to temp) before the ecu switches over to a mode that generates the smoke.
     
  12. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,457
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    After sitting for 10 years, you will get the engine to smoke a lot and for a long time. I suggest you take it out for a drive at night if everything else checks out. Drive it for 30 minutes.
     
  13. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    If it's pumping too much fuel isn't it washing the cylinders at the same time?
     
  14. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    184
    France
    Hello

    I am having the exact same thing on my Mondial T.. and it was working fine just before!

    I have found a dead fuel pressure regulator (disconnect the vaccum hose between the FPR and the plenum, in mine it was full of fuel..) as a result it was injecting fuel directly in the cylinder at the back of the plenum close to the dead FPR and also I assume too much fuel pressure on this bank.

    It is still smoking as I think I now have a dead spark plug.

    I suggest you to have a look at the spark plugs it will tell where the issue is.
     
  15. Big Block F

    Big Block F Rookie

    Jun 19, 2017
    15
    Perth WA
    Thank you for the reply.

    I am getting close now.

    The smoke is much much less.

    It seems I have had numerous problems but after more than 10 years what can I expect.

    Initially the problem was fouled injectors, one half of the engine (5 -8) was completely blocked an inoperable.

    I intermittently lost half of the coil pack on the 1 - 4 side.

    The 5 - 8 side also had a sometimes ptoblem with the crank angle sensor.

    The 3.0 bar setting on the fuel pressure regulators seems to have been much much higher, this was rectified by reducing the fuel pressure until the idle dropped away then bringing it back up a little. I did have a pressure guage as supplied with the City of fuel pressure regulators, this was far far from accurate. I just need to make an appropriate fitting so as to plumb in my calibrated guage.

    And to top this all off, there may be too much oil in the oil tank, it looks like my oldest son may have tried to help out but wasn't aware of the specifics of Ferrari dry sump systems (I will check in with him when he is back in town (currently on army drployment)).

    So, there you have it, a big step forward.

    Now that it seems to be running sweetly it is time to drop the engine and do belts and other items. I wanted to get in running properly before removing the engine for major service, rather than do the belt etc and then find it wouldn't start or run after the major service.

    I will let you know how it progresses as it gets closer to being back on the road.
     
  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,613
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    #16 ernie, Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    Check the fuses for the fuel pumps and the relay switches for the fuel pump's in the passenger compartment foot well. Check the ignition control module's a.k.a. igniters, they are mounted right next to the coil packs. Check the cam phase sensor at the rear of the 1/4 intake cam. Make sure that your throttle bodies are balanced and that all your vacuum lines are in good shape. Check the coolant temperature sensors located under the intake plenum, as they tell the Motronic the temp of the engine, and the fuel supply is controlled via the coolant temp. Pay attention to the coolant temperature and make sure it is over 176° Once fully warmed up, otherwise the ECU will not get out of initial start up enrichment. If the coolant temp is too low you may need a new thermostat.
     
  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,931
    Isle of man- uk
    Be carefull what is causing too much engine oil level, if you have been getting a lot of unburnt fuel in the cylinders it will go past the pistons and increase the oil volumn.
    Might be an idea to change the engine oil out in case it is fuel diluted
     

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