F1 3rd gear failing synchro, can you recommend a shop? | FerrariChat

F1 3rd gear failing synchro, can you recommend a shop?

Discussion in '360/430' started by Virulosity, Jul 24, 2017.

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  1. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    I did some searching and reading and found lots of threads with references to failed synchros, but they are all cliff hanger endings :)

    I am hoping someone can recommend a gearbox specialist that can perform the work, preferably in southern California. I will be happy to post lots of pictures and information about it when it is finally under way, this story will have a happy ending ;)

    I saw someone had theirs done in Arizona and got away with only about $300 in parts and $2000 total with labor, but they had already dropped the transmission themselves. Don't know if I am up to the task for this, but I will review the workshop manuals and see what is involved. I plan on buying a lift for the car to be able to do all of the regular maintenance items.

    Thanks for any input.

    EDIT: Wanted to add the symptoms that the car is experiencing: You hear a clunk/scratch/grind sound when shifting from 2-3 and from 4-3. It is quite loud on the downshift.
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    I would contact Gary Bobileff.
     
  3. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Thanks, will do!
     
  4. ShadowF430

    ShadowF430 Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2017
    267
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Jason
    If you do decide to pull the trans, I'm down to offer a hand if I'm free. Never pulled a Ferrari trans, but with a shop manual it like reading Lego instructions lol.
     
  5. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Thanks! I appreciate that. I saw that there was another member in anaheim that did his own clutch job a few years back, his was a manual trans, but maybe if we combine powers I could do most of the expensive time consuming work myself. I am an engineer, and have quite a bit of wrenching experience on race cars, but not ferraris. I plan on buying a portable 2 post lift as well which should make it a lot less frustrating. When I start the job I will post up and see if anyone wants to come hang out :)
    I just bought the car out of state and it is still on a transporter until next week, then I will be on vacation for a couple weeks, so I will probably start in September. Just trying to gather information and prepare as much as possible at this point.
     
  6. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,506
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    You need several special tools including box sockets and a jig and all the measurements or it'll last about five minutes...
     
  7. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Don't know what what box sockets are? I have a full set of box wrenches and a full set of deep well and standard sockets? Do you mean crows foot wrenches? What fixtures and measurements do I need?
     
  8. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,506
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    There are two special sockets required for the ring nuts on the shafts. You need a special tool to push the main shaft out of the casing once the diff unit has been extracted. There is a jig to assemble the cluster before it is inserted back into the casing. There are various items that need to be checked and measured that are known issues in these units. It's not really a DIY job...
     
  9. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Of course! That makes sense. I wasn't planning on working inside the gearbox, just removing it from the car and delivering it to the transmission shop. That cuts the labor about in half from some of the estimates I have received. I wouldn't trust myself inside the gearbox :)
     
  10. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,506
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    Sorry! I misunderstood! Yes remove and instal doesn't require any special tools...
     
  11. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    UPDATE: I have been driving the car more to try and understand this problem. I notice that everything works fine when the oil temperature is still on the bottom of the range! It only happens after the car warms up. Maybe this is good news? I would assume if it were the synchro it would happen all the time. I have read other threads where 3rd pedal cars can't seem to get into gear when hot. I wonder if this could somehow be a similar problem, but the F1 actuators just jam it in there. I am unable to perform self learning on my TCU revision with my tools (X-diag) but I am planning on getting it reflashed to CS spec by Eric next week. If I am lucky, it may just be something is out of alignment and able to be hopefully calibrated in software.

    As the car warms up the noise becomes more apparent. As soon as I notice it now, I just double tap the paddle to go from 2-4 and everything is fine, so the car is temporarily usable to get it around as needed (DMV >:\ ), but obviously not enjoyable as it should.
     
  12. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    Hi, I have same problem with my 360 F1.

    Shifting 2nd to 3rd = clunk noise, but for other gears, there's none and seems no problem.

    Also no noise when the car is cold, and after car warms up, it starts noising.
    As far as I can feel, shift shock is none, just a clunk noise.

    It's similar to this sound,

    noise type is really close, and noise length is same.
    You can hear from driver's seat and passenger's seat even both windows closed.

    Shifting with accelerate pedal on, seems little louder, Shifting with pedal off seems weaker noise.
    also it happens when shifting 2nd to 3rd even lower rev (around 2000 - 3500 rpm)
    downshift side seems less noise.

    So I'm doing the same shifting with OP .... double tap the paddle to go 2nd to 4th, skipping 3rd.
    But it's not good for my heart...

    Was the problem solved ? is that F1 actuators ?

    Hope I could have some hint for my problem.
     
  13. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Not solved yet. Here is a video of my noise (1:50-2:10) :
    I have been doing flushes of the F1 fluid with different ATF amd doing a self learn in between, then taking the car for a test drive to try and see if I notice any differences. Good news is I can definitely notice a difference, but I haven't solved this yet. I have been reading some other threads where people had issues with leaking actuators causing similar problems that are inconsistent with temperature like mine. This is an expensive repair, comparable with replacing the transmission. If mine are leaking, and I can fix it with heavier fluid, even for short term, I consider that a win.

    I already took my car to one well reputed shop here on the forums. He convinced me that it was a sticky throwout bearing and that we should replace the clutch. $6000 later, the problem was unchanged. I have also changed to a CS TCU and played with the PIS as well. I would try changing the PIS first, as well as flushing/bleeding the F1 circuit. This is pretty easy to do if you have access to one of the computers that can access the TCU.
     
  14. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    Thank you very much for the reply.

    Thank you for the video, yes, seems really similar sound.
    my TCU is a normal one, but that's the same annoying sound I can hear in my car also.

    Yesterday, I've asked to local ferrari professional service factory to check the problem,
    with refreshing transmission / gear oil and F1 fluid. (also timing belts)
    hopefully problem will be fixed by changing gear oil and F1 fluid...
    and next try will be F1 transmission setting.

    Post update when I got news from service factory.
     
  15. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    Sounds pretty normal to me listening on a phone.....At 1.55 sounds like a crunch, not a clunk?
    If so.....I’d say synchro.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  16. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    Mike,

    Thank you for the reply, it's difficult to say in English but yes 1:55 is the sound,
    and now I learnt that it's called "crunch" noise. Thank you, it was really difficult to explain in English.

    Noise only occurs when it has relation with 3rd gear only, other gears seems good. No noise coming when engaged.
    and while transmission is cold (say, around 10 minutes?), no noise, but transmission is warm, then noise coming.
     
  17. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    It is definitely the synchro that is making the noise, the question is why? If it were a bad synchro, I would expect it to make the noise all the time. I think the F1 system is mis-shifting or dragging the clutch on the shifts when hot because the fluid has thinned and is leaking past the cylinders in the actuator. Just a theory at this point, but I plan on doing several tests to see the sensitivity of the sound to several variables that are serviceable without much effort.
     
  18. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    #19 mussabo, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
    Rob,

    Synchro is weak point of F1 system ?
    my 360 F1 is around 20K miles, and seems no record of racing on race tracks.
    I cannot assume 100 % right thing, but previous owners are normal person, means they cannot full gas to drive this car.
    And most of the owners here have other car for daily use,
    means couldn't damage synchro hard during their ownerships.
    They don't need to ride everyday with shifting aggressively,
    and it's hard to drive with crowded roads in my country.

    But if synchro, then using same synchro for 3rd and 4th,
    then there should be noise when shifting 4th -> 5th and 5th -> 4th, right ?

    Your theory is the best one, and fully agree with you, fluid can be a cause of this problem,
    and now I'm waiting for news from service factory after changing gear oil + F1 fluid.
     
  19. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    The 3rd/4th synchro is double sided ie one synchro cone for each gear so one can still be ok. See Item 16....

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    There is a long thread on here about the trans oil and the compromise between the transmission and the differential. See how it is after the oil change.

    Does it grind across the rev range?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    I have seen several posts about failed synchros, particularly 3rd gear, and not just the F1 cars, so they are definitely a weak point. That said, if the system is working correctly, the transmission oil is good, and the driver is doing their part, they should last a long time. Did you ever have a heat exchanger leak?
     
  21. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    #22 mussabo, Oct 18, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
    Mike,

    Seems not grind noise, only when gears engaged (seems no clutch slipping)
    maybe it's "very short time" grind noise, but I can heard

    Rob,

    Ok, it's a weak point of 360, synchros... I've never had a synchro problem with my previous cars (Z34, IS-F, 987 Cayman)

    Heat exchanger leak
    It's difficult to know because it's only 1 month from when the car come to my house.
    I didn't rev / shift hard because had to change timing belt, oils first.
    There seems no mark of leak (center black box with black cap, right?)
     
  22. mussabo

    mussabo Rookie

    Jul 29, 2017
    12
    Yokohama, Japan
    Full Name:
    R.M
    please add following sentence (edit time 10 minutes passed, sorry for multiple post)

    maybe it's "very short time" grind noise, but I can heard very similar to "clunk sound effect" video sound in my previous post.
    So I cannot check rev / noise linearly proportional possibility.
     
  23. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,228
    Contact Steve Maxwell Exotic in San Diego for the rebuild.
     
  24. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
    162
    Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Mussabo: The center black box is the coolant reservoir. The way to tell if you have a heat exchanger leak is you will have coolant in your transmission fluid when you change it. Have your transmission fluid changed. Also, there is a screen filter you can check for debris when they change it, but anything that shows up in there is pretty serious size chunks indicating major damage, probably won't see anything. When you feel comfortable with the car, try doing a full throttle shift above 6000 rpm. In my case, everything works perfectly with no noise! That is another thing that makes me think it isn't a synchro that is causing the problem, but who knows. Maybe the engine RPM is synchronized perfectly with the timing of the engine cut so the synchro isn't really doing much.
     

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