Are 3 pedal Ferrari's (6spd Gated Manual's) Worth the $$$

One man's idea of "classic" is another man's idea of "old fashioned".

 

In my opinion, part of the reason for the gated shifter premium in various older models, is that the F1 tranny from 10 to 18 years ago was not as good as later generations of F1, and not at all comparable at all to current DCT technology. It's like comparing a Chevy 2 speed powerglide with later automatics with overdrive.


Molti nemici molto onore

 

I agree, F1 is great on the track, but for me, no fun on the street.


Molti nemici molto onore

 

You have great taste in cars, BTW.

 

This is what I meant. See this and the "manual" is an F1. F1 fluid reservoir.

Not present in manuals unless a buyer the past has installed something funky.. like maybe a James Bond oil slick device or rear mounted flame throwers.
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But that thing in the picture is not covered in Modenas? In my spider is covered


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Everyone has their unique opinion on things however the minority they are. Some like a bottle of Dom without the bubbles. Some like the Dodge switches and cheap plastic interior pieces in modern Maseratis' over the proprietary designed components. They can have their own opinion however incorrect it is.

 

Interesting.. in every modena in stick that I've seen it has been open. I've seen in some cars there is a heat shield in front of it.. but only for the F1s, where there is a curvature for the reservoir. Again.. it's what I've seen even on the later models...

 

My read of the situation is a strong majority of the original buyers of these cars knew they would be selling them on within 18-36 months. They have their reasons. But they are concerned with depreciation. I don't think you can fairly criticize someone for wanting to limit their downside. And the market place was such that there was the concern if you ordered a stick shift, the demand might not be there as it seemed "everyone" wanted an F1. The truth is probably a mix of all the theories, but the simple fact is a very high % were made as F1.

The question on price is will we see this premium for stick cars continue, will it get smaller, or get bigger?

Who knows?

My opinion is if you have the money and really want that experience, then you should get the car.

My gut feeling says things that are special, unique, different, they are going to stand out. There are a lot of really great pre-owned paddle based exotic cars on the market now... What doesn't McLaren, most 430s, Scud, 16M, 458 variants, F12, etc what can't they offer? That's right, a stick shift. My gut feeling is the premium is going to expand over time- so long as the miles aren't too high.

(The whole miles thing is another absurdity of the marketplace, but its real)

 

So that is why I asked if how can you tell a gated vs f1 by looking at the engine
It seems only the hose from the F1 pump



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Lol! Awesome but yet can't go into gear properly for many and can't even shift fast with it.

 

If it ain't Boeing im not going ...same with the stick..forget all this FBW and joystick /paddle thingys.

 

That's actually much more absurd than the "gated vs F1" thing and poisons the whole market, if you ask me.

However, I was driving my Scud on a great road yesterday, pushing it real good and I thought... I will never go so fast on the corners and I will never enjoy a fast ride this good if this car had a manual gearbox.... And the Scud F1 system shifts so fast, that to me at least it makes much more fun shifting with the paddles. It's not that I don't like manuals, don't get me wrong, but when you're driving really fast on a twisty roads, the F1 makes much more fun (to me at least), especially when you downshift.

 

The Scud F1 box works great because it's about 6 technological generations advanced from the first F1s that were designed in the 1990's.


Molti nemici molto onore

 

Sure, but the newest manual cars (430 and 599) are the only ones with high prices. The price difference between the manual and F1 355s and 360s is not so big.

 

I don't know about the UK. IIRC, you guys got a higher percentage of 3 pedals than any other market. In the US, there are very, very few manual 430s available. Prices have stabilized during the last couple of years, maybe even gone down a little. But it is still a sellers market right now whereas for paddles cars, it's definitely a buyer's market.

Dave

 

From what i have read you live in one of the very few places left on the planet where the full performance of a ferrari can be enjoyed on road.

 

Yep! Nearly impossible.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAW5pOggjrg[/ame]

 

Try driving a 275


Molti nemici molto onore

 

I used to have a 330 GTC. I had to double clutch to up shift into fifth. But that was okay.

 

This is a 355. This car was designed with the 3 pedal in mind and the shifting in this vid is pretty fast but still not all that fast.

So as I stated before....even you love the 3 pedal Ferrari so much then stick with the proper generation...which would be a 355 or 360 at most.

You only have to be in the 360/F430 section to see all gated shifter issues. There are enough youtube vids also on the gated F430 and it's certainly not impressive at all...especially the upshifts.

How they are shifting only confirms the uncertainty of getting into the next gear so it's a slow and deliberate process of:

1. let off gas
2. pushing in clutch
3. taking out of current gear (e.g. 2nd)
4. getting shifter middle aligned to push into 3rd
5. release clutch
6. step on gas

While it's obviously not as slow as how it's explained above but I just cringe when I see how slowly they are shifting.

 

What is a full performance? Changing a gear on 8500rpm every time? I don't think so. What I meant is changing gears in the middle of the corner and downshifting while braking. And yes - we do have some nice twisty roads, but anyway - on the track these same things will have even bigger impact if that is what you mean.

 

Ok, your last comment about the gated shifter didn't read to me as specifying 430 only which is why I posted the vid as an example to counter your statement of-

"Lol! Awesome but yet can't go into gear properly for many and can't even shift fast with it."

I data logged myself shifting a manual trans Camaro and ended up with

1-2 shift 187ms, 2-3 shift 203ms ,3-4 shift 156ms.

I can shift the 355 just as fast, the gate is not a hindrance at all.

 

Full performance means being able to stretch the car out as road conditions allow so that you and the machine are as one.
In the USA realisticaly traffic and legal restraints means at most a few short bursts here and there and quick corner. Which is different to stringing a whole road togther over say 10-30 mins(like playing an instrument), or winding a car out on a highway.

In the USA being stopped over 100 mph or 160 KMH pretty much means going to the clink and many many thousands of dollars and court time. So yes people here may go fast surrepetisiously and then quickly slow down.

From my experience with high hp paddle cars, they are a pretty bland expereince when being driven say below 8/10ths. On country back roads where driving with gusto is still possible speeds may max at 100 mph and there are lots of slower speed corners, a modern ferrari is overkill and not that much fun below 9/10ths. Whereas a more viceral car with manual great feedback etc can be entertaining just to drive at any speed simply because its more engaging and challenging at a wider range of velocities.

When i go on a ferrari club run, my relatively low performing boxer is easily the front runner simply because I am less averse to the omnipresent fear of legal/road and traffic limitations and its relative performance on road is already pretty high. Yes a more modern car could blow it away if the driver was possesed of enough insanity to go too fast into blind corners or didnt care about a massive speedign fine on the highway. Meanwhile for my relative speed I have to think and work a lot harder which is more entertaining and engaing than holding back a 458 to 8/10ths. Well in some cases a 458 driver due to relative lack of skill will already be at their 10/10ths.

Now maybe you say many people cant drive. But I also have a friend with 458 and he is a former pro ama motorcycle racer. When we go for a late fall backroad romp no holds barred there is still very little speed difference between us. Maybe its the backroads we have, lots of trees, many blind corners and two lanes with shortish straights. Highways are crowded and excessively policed.

When I lived in South Africa on a sunday outside of cities roads were pretty lightly trafficked and the few police were converstaional if you were stopped. That meant a car could really be used on road, not so here or in much of the rest of the world. In south africa even my wifes volvo would travel from city to city at 200-240kmh.

A few years ago I went to try a 458 and a Mp12. I drove there in my Bb. There is this one turn I love on a windign two lane highway. In the BBI you setup for the turn, downshift to 4th enter at about 120(200kmh) and squeeze the power on exiting at some higher speed.

in the 458 and mp12 the same coner at those or higher speeds, felt like typing into a keyboard, so how much faster would you need to be going to have it become entertaining.
The same day I drove a 997.2 GT3. The precision of the throttle, steering and tactile joy of all the controlls made it engaging at 30 mph and the same 120 mph corner.

Its not just how fast you go, but also how you go fast. Same with motorcycles.

My point is that in most part of the world a sportscar should be engaging in a way an AMg mercedes is not at road attainable speeds, and most modern fast cars are no more engaging than a an amg mervcedes at road "attainable" speeds, at least here and in much of europe.

Its not just about a stick, but everything from power characteristics to chassis feel(does the car feel alive) to control enagement. The types of things that make a lower performing lotus elise such a joy to drive on the right roads.

ill argue its the same reason a GT3 RS 4.0 is worth so much money these days, its just such an excellent drive, and can perform on track.

Thats the fate for many of us in the rest of the world, enjoyt thtactility of your car on road and go to the track for max attack. On track its a whole different ballgame, far less relaxing than any unrestricted fast road drive and no letup in pace. The machine is running at 9/10ths to 10/10ths all day. Yes paddles are awsome on track, but if its a car youre driving to the track, most of you use is probably non track, and the extra speed of paddles on track comes at a serious price on backroads.

To give an idea of how hard a car is worked on track, tires are unlikely to last 3 days or 600 miles and pads last not much longer.

Inetrestingly you hardley ever to never see a ferrari at the track. The reasons given are depreciation and costs to run. The people I know with Laferraris TDFs etc say they just have better track tools. Yes a CS/scud/speciale/tdf are probably lots of fun on track, but the way ferrari sells these cars they are mostly "collectables" at least here.

So some people, here who really just love the joy of drivign as road conditions and speed allows would like a more viceral more engaing ferrari for road, something like porche did with the 991R or new 991 Gt3 that has a stick or even cayman gt4. Somehtign fun on road, and at the same time robust enough to really track here and there on the odd weekend. Yes such a car would be slower on paper. But then if you go to the track there is always a faster car, and the real speed as we know comes from the driver.

Ill finish this long post by saying its not just about a stick, becasue from everythign I read the new Hurrucan performante is an excellent engaging car to drive on road and track.

Now I know people say ferrari is all about performance, I guess that depedns on how prformance is measured. A cali or Ff is not all about performance. So relisticaly we have performance categories. Nor is any 458/488 purelya bout objective eprformance, thats why you have great stylign and engine sound.

Ferraris used to be be both objectively fast and subjectively enagaging/involving/something special. I think in th inerests of makign them "useable" and brand management ferrari has lost a lot of the subjective, unless of course you can may out as is I assume possible where you live. Its the reason why the stick has become so mythical, yet as we know a 599 stick is not a great drive and I can tell you for a fact that a 991 porche witht he 7 speed sucks, so there is much more to it than that. The acr has to be properly enginered for the transmission, and all other factors need to be alive.

Look at Ducati, the Hypermotard and Monster outsell the superbikes handily.

 

LOL. Really? All the issues? Not like the daily or semi-daily F1 maintenance posts... setting PIS, etc. etc.

Please. Go put the shades back on and cruise down Rodeo drive...