Maserati Khamsin | Page 282 | FerrariChat

Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

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  1. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Mark Oliver
    Oh, well attaching that photo didn't go as expected!
    Will try harder next time!
     
  2. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Nov 4, 2006
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    Marc Sonnery
    Yes it is owned by a friend of mine, this is the car Martin Chisholm had a few years ago we discussed it here then. Good car, I am not involved at all.

    Best regards from Chantilly,

    Marc
     
  3. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Mark Oliver
    Does look super!!
     
  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    I am trying the debug the ventilation system and need to better understand how it is suppose to work, specifically the air flap that controls air flow to either the windshield or the cabin vents.

    To control flap #2 on the diagram below, the electromagnetic vacuum valve (#19) is energized by turning on the electric toggle switch (un-numbered) located to the right bottom of the diagram. In other words, you flip the switch ON, which energizes the vacuum valve, which allows vacuum to flow to the diagram of the actuator located just to the right of the heater/AC core. This part works just fine. The problem is when I turn the switch back to the OFF position the flap should return to is normal rest position and allow air to flow to the cabin vents, and it is not.

    The reason the flap dose not return to its normal position is that shutting off the vacuum valve still leaves the actuator diaphragm with vacuum in the line. In other words, air needs to come into the line in order for the diaphragm to move back to its rest position. But where does this air come from? I've taken the vacuum valve apart and it simply allows vacuum to flow or shut it off; the valve has no provision to vent the line. There must be something obvious that I am completely missing ....
    Ivan


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  5. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    I am starting to suspect that Maserati may have done an engineering mistake on the defogger ventilation function. I need a few Khamsin owners to do a very quick test. This test only works if the vacuum lines that control ventilation air flow are still connected on your car.

    Start the engine. Turn the ventilation fan to High and set the Fresh-Off-Rec switch to either Fresh or Rec. Air should be coming from either the cabin vents or the vents on top of the dash, depending on the position of the windshield toggle switch (the one next to the yellow arrow). Now flip the windshield toggle switch several times and note what happens.

    Logically you would expect air to either flow to the top of the dash or the cabin as you flip this switch from one position to another. Is this how it works on your car?

    Ivan Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Ivan..

    Thought I would let all know what my testing produced. After ensuring the vacuum valve controlled by
    the switch (next to the yellow arrow in your picture) was connected, I started the car and let it run for
    a few seconds. I set the recirc switch to fresh and then turned the fan to high. Air was been blown out of
    the cabin dash vents. When I engaged the switch next to the yellow arrow, air was blown out of both the
    upper dash vents, and the cabin dash vents. When I turned the switch to the off position, nothing
    happened, air continued to flow from the upper vents and cabin dash vents.

    It will be interesting to see what others experience....

    Mike
     
  7. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Michael Demyanovich
    Fellow K owners...

    A quick question... It's been a while (and many other cars) since I drained the coolant system of
    my Khamsin. I may have to do this to gain access to loosen a bolt to swap the hydraulic pump belts.
    I sort of explained this in previous posts...

    I can't seem to remember what process I used when I drained the K's coolant.. I took a quick look
    today and don't see a drain valve.. What procedure have other K owners used to drain and fill
    the coolant? Any and all tips are appreciated...

    Mike
     
  8. dkbluec4

    dkbluec4 Rookie

    May 29, 2006
    47
    Northampton UK
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    Neil Lefley
    Thanks for the information on the road springs - thanks to the search facility I now have them in the right places.
    In my kit of parts masquerading as #393, I am missing the rear gearbox mount, the rear side windows and trim, and the clutch master cylinder.
    The master cylinder looks to be a standard Girling one with seals to suit the LHM fluid, except that I don't know the bore size, and the same casting was used for 3 different sizes.
    Any info would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Neil.
     
  9. richjar

    richjar Formula Junior

    Oct 20, 2009
    250
    Is the switch marked by the arrow the switch for the rear window electrical demist? I was in my car earlier before I saw this post.
     
  10. richjar

    richjar Formula Junior

    Oct 20, 2009
    250
    No, you are correct, just checked the manual. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. richjar

    richjar Formula Junior

    Oct 20, 2009
    250
    Not my picture, but from Facebook.
    Is this a known Khamsin?
    Seen in the car park at the Goodwood Revival 2017. I have no further details...
     

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  12. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Hi Richard,

    Appears to be AM120148 ex Gauchenot French Maserati club president decades ago when green and more recently designer Pierre Castinel (ex Renault and Tata, now Peugeot in Shanghai) who had it completely redone in these colors as I saw it at Le Mans Classic 2010, first photo, the others he sent me.
    He had it up for sale this winter in a garage west of Paris, he rarely comes to Europe hence decided to part with it.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     

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  13. MK1044

    MK1044 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 6, 2011
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    Carmine
    Ivan,

    I think your analysis is correct.
    . Air must be allowed back into the line.
    . The most logical place for that to occur would be the electro-pneumatic valve #19.
    . You have checked valve #19 and it does not have a third port to allow the air back in when in its un-actuated position.

    Your suspicion of a Maserati engineering error is reasonable.

    But maybe there is something else going on.

    1. Have you tried pulling the vacuum hose off valve #19 and checking on whether the butterfly #2 closes?

    2. There must be some physical force that causes butterfly #2 to be closed as its normal (unactuated) position? What is that force? Perhaps a spring on the butterfly's pneumatic actuator? Or the butterfly is counter-weighted by its flap being slightly offset on its pivot? Maybe the linkage on that end of the system needs to be cleaned and lubed?

    Carmine

    PS: I no longer own a Khamsin and so cannot check the actual operation.
     
  14. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Hi Carmine,

    Thank you for your response. I was starting to wonder if Khamsin owners participate in this forum :)

    I've continued to investigate the vacuum system, including taking the electromagnetic valves apart. I took photos and wrote an article which explains how everything works and how to debug it. The article can be found on my website:

    http://thecarnut.com/Manuals/Khamsin_vacuum_article.pdf

    I suspect many Khamsins (and Bora and Merak SS) either have the vacuum system disconnected or not properly connected.

    Ivan
     
  15. MK1044

    MK1044 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #7040 MK1044, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    Well, it's mainly you, Graham and Mark. :D

    Whoa, Ivan! That's quite a lot of stuff. I downloaded your PDF and will study it later.
    But did you resolve the problem?
     
  16. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello Carmine...

    And here I thought I participated quite a bit!!! hmmm.... ;)
    After all, I was the first to respond to Ivan's post... But, in all fairness,
    he and I did talk on the phone when I tested the vacuum and vent systems
    on my car.. :)

    Mike
     
  17. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    [QUOTE="MK1044, post: 145581274, member: 111134
    But did you resolve the problem?[/QUOTE]

    Everything is now working "as designed". Mike D confirmed that on his K the windshield switch works the same as mine. I am still curious what other K owners experience when toggling the windshield defogger switch on and off numerous times. The expectation is that in one position some of the air is diverted to the windshield (vents on top of dash) and in the other position all the air comes out of the main vents. The reality is a bit different ....

    Of course the windshield defogger switch will never get used .... I just have fun figuring these things out :)

    Ivan
     
  18. MK1044

    MK1044 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 6, 2011
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    Carmine
    Sorry, Mike. Yes you are quite active on this thread also.

    Back to the issue at hand. I know you Euro guys are averse to changing anything from original -- other than our bold, beautiful American bumpers :D -- but here is a possibility for those who don't mind some functional improvements.

    It seems Ivan has investigated the matter enough to be sure, so if he is correct about the Maserati engineering error, what is needed is to replace the two port valve with a three port valve, such as: Parker-Hannifan Cyclone series valve, 3 port, 2 position, Model No. 7-5-3-2-6-0-1-2-5-B. (Certainly there is a Siemens equivalent more easily available in Europe).

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    Connect the butterfly actuator to port 2.
    Leave port 3 open to atmosphere, preferably through a small sintered bronze filter.
    Connect port 1 to engine vacuum.
     

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  19. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Carmine...

    No problem, I was just teasing you a bit...

    Do I sense you wish you had kept your Khamsin, or would like to own another one?

    Mike
     
  20. khamsin433

    khamsin433 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2009
    288
    Birmingham, UK
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    Balbir
    Hi Ivan,
    I finally managed to test out the function and it appears that the defogger switch makes no difference to the direction of output. About the same amount of air coming out windscreen and face vents defogger switch off or on.
    433 also has the x2 vacuum electro switches in the engine bay. I think like you I need to check that all is properly set up as folks may have tinkered in the past

    Bal
     
  21. khamsin433

    khamsin433 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2009
    288
    Birmingham, UK
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    Balbir
    Hi Ivan,
    On page 6 of your write up there's a purple wire on the rear most carb, would you know what this is for as on my car it's floating loose? I can't quite make out what it is that it's connected to in the picture, looks like a post or something.
    Thanks in advance.

    Bal
     
  22. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    That purple wire goes to the choke warning light switch. The switch is closed when the choke is on, which turns on the choke warning light.

    Ivan
     
  23. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    Interesting that your car has 2 vacuum relays. I thought Euro cars only have one. I assumed Euro cars did not have ignition retard function but perhaps I am mistaken. Does your car have a vacuum line to retard the ignition at idle? Does the rearmost carburetor have the micro switch ?

    Ivan
     
  24. khamsin433

    khamsin433 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2009
    288
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    Balbir
    Thanks Ivan,
    I've never used the choke in all the time I've owned the car so never would have notice the warning light.
    The micro switch is there in the rear carb as is the vacuum line on the distributer.
    When my car was on a rolling road to sort out the tuning a few years back the vacuum operation was intermittent causing fluctuating settings. The guys ended up taking a vacuum feed off the main line into relays to the distributer.
    Obviously something wasn't working correctly and they didn't understand those relays.
    I'll try take a picture of the set up for reference.
    My car as well as 435 also originally came with the pump to help with emissions, which we also thought a US only setup.

    Bal
     
  25. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    I saw #210 and found it strange that a Euro spec car would have an air pump. Did all the Euro spec Khamsins come with air pumps and the ignition retard system?

    Ivan
     

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