Gearbox DSG Maintenance

What is the black magic? $28k? Yikes. It's just a matter of time before others figure out how to rebuild these.

 

I asked the ferarri dealer in maintenance many times. He told it was before 458 models the gear has issues. the DCT is normal life time usage. as I read from many people that at the beginning ferarri dealers use to change the gear and then figure out only to replace the error.

 

First of all DSG is not the correct way to refer to the DCT which Ferrari uses.
It is a box which is manufactured by Getrag specifically for Ferrari.
It is not the same box used by Porsche or Audi or VW!
And it is also different from the box used in Mercedes.

Asking how long things last is not an easy question to answer either,
How long does a person live?
Are you talking about a man or a woman or a persons who smokes or one who doesn’t eat vegetables or drink alcohol?

(Fchat is replete with posts of those who don’t currently drive an FCar or else don’t have any miles and experience with an F car they are commenting about.)

Sorry I’ve driven an FCar every day for the past 14 years and logged over 220,000 miles.

 

Actually the Getrag 7DCL750 DCT that is used in the Ferrari is identical to the gearbox that is used in the Mercedes SLS AMG and AMG GT.

 

Good for you... on your long mileage accomplishment. and thanks for the correction. I don’t think the set ups are that different and can be interchanged like coke and Pepsi.

It’s fair to have discussions and comments about these topics. You are not the exclusive overseer of dialect and naming so we’ll go ahead and continue talking. I’m an owner. Before I own the car in question, I think I’ll get some info.

You did not really add anything of value to this discussion or disprove that this is actually a concern.

Merry Christmas.

Robb

 

I am under the impression that Mercedes use a different software set up compared to Ferrari. Many who have driven both and compared have commented on the difference in shifting

Whether this leads to a prolongation of the life of the box I don’t know.

 

Do you have a problem with your DCT

 

Yes when my 458 hit 50K
At that time Ferrari factory said if everything tests normal then don’t do anything. I was told the same a few years earlier when my Cali.

Other kindds of boxes such as VW and Audi have a recommended fluid and filter change interval of 35 and 40 K miles respectively.

I am sure that Getrag arrived at its recommendations based on scientific analysis of fluids which are probably done with aging.

Now regarding the F1 transmission. Those certainly had issues. The dry Clutch was infamous for wearing quickly. However depending on how it was adjusted and how you drove they could last.In my 360 the original Clutch lasted 7 years and 68,000 Miles
I did have some F1 pump issues I forget if I got it rebuilt or a new one.

 

Thanks for your input, MalibuGuy.

It would also be interesting to know the "age" interval. Most intervals for fluid replacement are km-mi based AND based on a time period, for instance: 50k miles or 5 years. If the DCT works with a fluid, then all fluids lose their properties not only with mileage, but also with time.

Kind regards,

Nuno.

 

I'm the OP who started what I thought was a helpful thread gathering info on "newish" technology. I'm not trying to **** on the system - just understanding likely expenses.

I want to know about others' experience with these new gearboxes prior to a purchase. I don't see that as unreasonable - just due diligence. I'm not a troll and am asking a serious question based on what I have heard from my trusted mechanic on what he has worked on - and other mechanics on similar Audi R8 DSG.

I appreciate user feedback. Just don't need what seems like a dismissive attitude. If I read that wrong - my apologies.

Robb

 

Ferrari is committed to the DCT. It is used in the entire model range and Limited Editions too.

If there were a high percentage of catastrophic failures or a shorter lifespan, this would create an aftermarket service nightmare. It is a very expensive and labor intense repair, covered under warranty with no mileage limit.

After the expiration of the factory policy, we have the option to buy the extended warranty which covers things but may have a mileage limit.

Getrag is committed to their DCT technology and are improving the wiring, sensors, and seals.

If your box does develop a problem, then it usually has to come out of the car. If a new box is needed then the ‘transplant ‘ takes a few days to perform.

Now dealers are being trained to replace faulty wiring and sensors. This helps to reduce costs but the parts and labor are still exoensive.

 

Sorry I’ve driven an FCar every day for the past 14 years and logged over 220,000 miles.

You didn’t read the first word of the sentence, Sorry. I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone.

I do feel that many posts and threads can create concerns and rumors which may be erroneous, misleading and create unnecessary concerns for future and current owners.

I realize that this may not be the original intent of the person making a post or creating a thread However it results in an effect.

Anyway, merry Christmas to you too.
And I’ll wish you a Happy New year as well!

Peace!

 

The issue with dsg or dct boxes doesn’t really concern anyone who always has their cars with an extended WARRANTY. Many owners Sell after a warranty expires rather than pay for an extension. I don’t personally wish to pay $5k + for one each year on a used Ferrari, mclaren, or R8.

But, the cost for repair or replacement (if repair is not an option in a sealed unit) IS a big factor to purchasing a 458 as they age off of warranty options.

So I’m not insisting it is a known problematic issue although two reputable mechanics have told me of owners they worked with who had to eat the costs for box replacements not in warranty. That spurred my question as we may purchase a 458 in the future. I like the car quite a lot. Prices are coming down.

Just like I asked about clutch replacement costs for our multiple F355 @ $1,600

Or an F430 F1 clutch my brother was interested in @ $8,000

I was told a dsg box lasts for the life of the car from many, but I expected some cost like the other traditional items that wear. But then the mechanics indicated you may still need to carry an “oh ****” fund for the dsg / dct.

So I guess I should budget 10-20k for future dsg / dct replacement if I buy a car not in warranty. May never need it, kind of like valve guides on F355. You can’t get those cars with a warranty either, and Ferrari never wanted to cover guides for our cars in the beginning either.

So I’m just looking for good information on expectations on wear items. These seem to be fairly well known on most older F-cars.

I think it’s only fair to do due diligence on the 458 before we buy. And I get that if I can’t afford a $20k gearbox (or other part replacement then I shouldn’t buy the car... but as long as we figure out all the items before a purchase, there shouldn’t be an issue with figuring out how to maintain and enjoy.

Robb

 

Getrag believes that the fluids do not need to be changed for the service life of the vehicle

What is the life of a Ferrari?

In California the legal definition is 100,000 Miles, at least that is what is used for to calculate mechanical liability with the Lemon Law.

But if course many cars can last to 200,000 Miles if cared for properly and not driven to extremes such as in racing on a track. And then with Ferrari’s we have cars from the duties which are still driven albeit lightly.

When I get to 100,000
Miles I’ll ask the factory to change the fluids and see what they say.

 

I think all customers are concerned about costs and reliability and supreme performance and longevity.
Having said this, having a warranty is probably your best solution since it covers the box as well as other items.
But do the math. How long do you expect to own the car and put on miles. Maybe after two years you will want to either trade or elevate the car to garage queen. Mechanical problems aren’t that important in terms of long term costs then.

I think you can buy a 458 488 used which still has a year or two of warranty either factory or extended (used bought from a dealer) and feel very safe with the purchase.

I’m not sure what helps prolong the life of the box.

With my 360, I always warmed up the car for 10 minutes which I believe made a significant difference. I was also lucky I didn’t live in hilly and cold place like San Fran, which I’ve heard was tough on the F1 dry clutches.

I don’t know what helps to prolong the life of the the Getrag Ferrari DCT. I never drive in Auto mode and no longer warm up my 458, But I keep the revs and the shift point low until things have warmed up. (Also I learned to drive with a stick and learned to match revs with speed and practiced double clutching. I think this helps inform shifting and may help to preserve the DCT as opposed to someone who is playing with the paddles for the fun of hearing the engine music.)

The Getrag DCT is the only option with the 488 488GTO Portofino 812 Lusso

If you have to pay for a box, Ferrari will cover the new part and labor for two years.

 

@ The Getrag DCT is the only option with the 488 488GTO Portofino 812 Lusso @

Please help me out ... what do you mean with this

 

Hi Robb,
I will attempt to give helpful advice on DCT fluid changes or any fluid changes for that matter. If it
is liquid change it at regular intervals. I changed my DCT fluid on my 2012 458 about a month ago, used Redlines product
for this application. It will take up to 8.5 qts but since you won't get all of the old oil out you probably won't get that much to go back in.
I always measure the amount of any fluid that I remove to get a general idea of what amount came out. There are specific instructions for checking/refill levels, refer to the WSM for the procedure, VERY important. All lubricants additive packages break down over time and mileage, even DCT fluid. The DCT oil used is kind of a hi tech hydraulic fluid (smells like gear oil)and is also used as a coolant, i.e.; 8.5 qts and an oil cooler with a fan so changing it should be a must. This "life time" concept that manufacturers are using for fluids is bull...t. "Life time" to them means "when it breaks" could be 100 miles or 100,000 miles. When I checked the old fluid after I drained it it had a slight darker tint to it which made me believe it was dirty. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for your post!

Why did you pick redline vs the factory brand.
Also did you consider sending out the old fluid for analysis? (I’ve heard of firms that do this kind of work )

 

Blackstone does fluid analysis.

One approach would be to take a sample of the fluid and send it off for analysis. Then depending on the results make a decision about changing it.

If you contact Blackstone they have done analysis on DCTs whose fluid is lifetime, with 100,000 miles which show the fluid to still be in spec.

Obviously we want to do PM in order to prolong the life of the DCT. Recommending fluid changes when it is not necessary is not a good practice.

Changing the Ferrari Getrag fluid at 20 or 50 K miles when the DCT is performing properly is probably unnecessary. However, if you want to be sure, why not send a sample to Blackstone to verify before making a fluid change.

But now we are focusing on the fluid as being the culprit for DCT failure.
I doubt this is the case.

Talk to the mechanics, Go look at a box which has failed and been opened up.

I have,

Wiring failures and sensor failures were what I know about.

Excessive wet clutch wear and mechanical gear wear were not the reason.

This is why I think some form of warranty combined with regular service visits with a good Ferrari service center is the best way to own and drive a modern Ferrari.

 

I mentioned in a previous post about the R35 DCT gearbox, which is also made by Getrag, and the requirement for frequent fluid changes in that box. I have seen the particles in the box and have also seen how the fluid changes colour in a reasonably short period of time. I still can't get my head round how the Getrag box in a 458 can go 100,000 miles before it needs a fluid change yet an R35 box, which was designed only a couple of years earlier, the fluid needs changing after 18,000 miles. I think I'll pay for regular fluid changes just to err on the side of caution with my 458 box.

 

Thanx Barry ! Better safe than sorry ....

My 458 is a 03-2012 and has now 42000 kms. I will ask for renewal of the DCT oil coming service in a few months.

How about the powersteering ?

 

I have used their products for 30 years and like the fact that they are an ester based formula and they use moly in their engine lubricants.
Lubricant manufactures and why people like certain ones vs. others is probably subjective, but doing research over the years of different brands
and what they use for their recipes is how I started with Redline and why I have stayed with that brand. I do think it is better than Shell, but is it really?
probably subjective
I have used oil analysis before but have boiled it down to if you are not suspecting or not aware of a problem than I don't bother anymore. Especially with
trans fluids, rearend gear oil, power steering etc. where you generally do not have other possible fluids inter-acting with the main fluid that can contribute to the contamination of the lubricant like engine oil, ie; coolant and combustion gases. In the case of the fluid in my DCT as I said above if its liquid( P/S fluid, coolant, gear oil, brake fluid etc.) it gets changed regularly. Cheap insurance and I enjoy the connection to my machinery by doing it myself.

 

The gearbox in the Nissan GTR has a recommended fluid change interval. So does the diff. It makes sense to follow this protocol.

Getrag probably made an analysis and told Nissan. After all Getrag probably had to either fix or replace the boxes which failed under the factory warranty, much like with Ferrari.

I think we should ask our dealers to inquire with the factory again since the 458 are aging in terms of years and mileage.

It will also be interesting to see if fluid recommemdati NA will be any different with the upcoming new models.

Can anyone explain why sensors fail? Is it an issue with the plastic and circuits being affected by vibration or heat cycles?

It would be better if they could be located for for easier replacement such as not requiring the box to come out of the car. In this way the labor costs would be significantly reduced.

 

BMW says it is a lifetime oil for the M-DCT GEARBOX.

 

In some of the BMW forums owners have debated the same issue that we are debating here with the 458. I’m not sure if they have the same gearbox. Somehow I doubt it.

I recall that some have sent their gearbox oil for analysis. But I recall reading about one owner withal little over a 100,000 miles whose oil was found to be in spec.