Small leak at bottom of clutch housing - 6-speed manual | FerrariChat

Small leak at bottom of clutch housing - 6-speed manual

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by asgor, Jan 19, 2018.

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  1. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #1 asgor, Jan 19, 2018
    As I was doing an oil change on the 456 I noticed a very small leak around the inspection cover (# 13 in the image below) at the bottom of the clutch housing. This is a 6-speed manual car.

    Specifically, it seems a few drops of oil are collecting on the outside of the RH angular clutch speed sensor (#2 in the image below) and then dripping to the bottom of the housing and collecting around the inspection cover. The LH angular sensor is dry. Based on my summary inspection I wouldn't say that the seepage occurs inside the clutch housing, but is visible on the outside: the outside of RH angular sensor is wet with oil, which in turn drips down and collects around the inspection cover.

    Any suggestions as to what else I should inspect to find the source of this leak?


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  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Terry H Phillips
    #2 tazandjan, Jan 19, 2018
    Oil or brake fluid? The only fluid inside that housing operates the annular throw-out bearing, which has seals to prevent leakage around the shaft. If it is indeed brake fluid, leakage could be from the bearing seals themselves or a line bringing in the brake fluid from the reservoir/cylinder.
     
  3. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #3 asgor, Jan 19, 2018
    Good question. It seems engine oil at the touch (haven't done the taste test :eek:).

    I just can't think of a good reason why oil would be found in that location. I cleaned it and will monitor over the next few days to see if the issue re-occurs.

    Incidentally, as I drained the oil I noticed that considerably more than the standard 10 liters came out (even though the level on the dipstick was near - but not above - the high mark). In any case, could higher hydraulic pressure inside the crankcase cause any such seepage in or around the clutch housing area?
     
  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 tazandjan, Jan 19, 2018
    If that is the case, could be oil from one of the engine seals at the front that is running down the bottom of the bell housing. Hopefully without getting on your clutch plates.
     
  5. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #5 Motob, Jan 20, 2018
    If engine oil is leaking out of the bell housing inspection cover, it is could be coming from the rear main seal/crankshaft, or the seal housing gasket. There is a threaded plug in the end of the crankshaft behind the pilot bearing. It has engine oil pressure behind it, so it may also be a source of the leakage. How bad is the leakage?
    If it is just a slight accumulation of oil that can be wiped off and doesn't return after a drive, then you can probably wait until the clutch needs replacement. If it is a constant leak, then it needs to fixed.
     
    cgng30 likes this.
  6. Canuck550

    Canuck550 Formula Junior

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    #6 Canuck550, Jan 21, 2018
    had same issue last year, in the same location, was a blown release bearing, the seals in the bearing blew apart, decided to do the entire clutch since I was in already.
     
  7. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #7 asgor, Jan 21, 2018
    Ouch.

    Looking at the clutch housing diagram... wouldn't the failure of the thrust bearing cause a brake fluid leak inside the bell housing? Maybe I am just not interpreting the diagram correctly and how all related parts work together :confused:

    Just to be clear: what I am experiencing is a small engine oil leak the runs on the outside of the bell housing - I still need to pinpoint exactly where it's coming from. Did you encounter the same symptoms?
     
  8. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #8 asgor, Jan 21, 2018
    Ah, and the operation of the clutch pedal appears to be just fine: no pedal-to-the-floor issues or softness in the pedal action.
     
  9. JoeTSI

    JoeTSI Formula 3
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    #9 JoeTSI, Jan 21, 2018
    More than likely rear main seal.
     
  10. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #10 Motob, Jan 21, 2018
    I did not realize that the leakage is on the outside of the bell housing. It sound like tazandjan's diagnosis of the leak coming from above and then running down is more plausible. The best thing to do is to clean all of the oil off of the engine/transmission.
    You can put some ultraviolet dye in the engine oil and then use an ultraviolet light to see if any future leakage is engine oil or brake fluid. Getting everything spotless clean and then take the car for a drive and recheck for leakage.
     
  11. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

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    #11 AVIMAX, Jan 22, 2018
    Is it running down the outside of the bell housing all the way form the top of the bell housing? Maybe the back of one of the cam covers? You should be able to get your hand back there are see if there is any oil. You say the RH speed sensor is oily, but the item you identify (#2) is the LH side. I ask only because I think the RH side (passenger side in the US) cam cover is more prone to leaking, form the gasket for the cam position sensor housing.
     
  12. toparkt

    toparkt Formula Junior
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    #12 toparkt, Jan 22, 2018
    I am in the middle of same repair. - It is the rear crank seal on mine.
    Shop owner is very very particular and replacement part was of Chinese manufacturer. -
    Shop owner now waiting for EU manufactured part.
    (apparently historical issues with sub quality part)
    Will post picture later
     
  13. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #13 asgor, Jan 22, 2018
    Thank you all for your insights. I have cleaned up the area affected by the leak and plan to keep an eye on it as I drive the car once or twice.

    As a side note, following the oil change I just did on the car I strongly suspect the crankcase might have been overfilled. I am hoping that this oil leak is the result of hydraulic pressure buildup against the rear main seal. Now that the amount of oil in the engine is correct I am keeping my fingers crossed on the slight chance that the leak will stop. But, as we all know, nothing is easy with Ferraris.

    I will post again as soon as I have new data or observations.
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 tazandjan, Jan 22, 2018
    It happens occasionally. When I first picked up my old Daytona in Houston and drove to New Mexico with her, she lost/used about 4-5 quarts during the 800 mile trip. After several months of normal use, no oil leaking or use.
     
  15. Canuck550

    Canuck550 Formula Junior

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    #15 Canuck550, Jan 23, 2018
    Hope it rectify's the situation, mine was caused by an over aggressive tech bleeding my clutch and blowing my bearing....very expensive lesson, my old clutch had 7000 km on it! and BTW, it was a hill bearing he blew! Since I was in I changed the entire unit, for good measure...The tech no longer works for the shop, sounds like there may have been other customer issues
     
  16. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #16 Motob, Jan 23, 2018
    There is no way in heck that you could damage a throw-out bearing/seal just by bleeding it. The pressure applied during the bleeding process is far less than the pressure that the throw-out bearing has applied to it during normal use.
     
  17. Canuck550

    Canuck550 Formula Junior

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    #17 Canuck550, Jan 24, 2018
    Or maybe he didn't just bleed it?
    All I can say brought in a good car for annual fluid flush, dropped off, went to pick up the next morning, gears not engaging and clutch near floor, how the hell did he not notice this? Brought the car back, he said he re-bled the system.
    I drove the car 5 kms home, parked it for the winter, 2 days into storage a puddle on the floor, fluid through the inspection cover and no clutch, coincidence?
    Pulled the trany and the bearing was shredded, a disaster. Wonder why he wasn't working at the place 2 month later?
     
  18. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #18 asgor, Jan 24, 2018
    I took the 456 out twice following the oil change, one of which was a - shall we say - spirited drive, and so far the leak hasn't reappeared. Have I dodged a bullet and all this was really the result of an overfill? Too early to say: I will keep monitoring the situation and will report back.

    Meanwhile I am continuing to exercise it often, as I normally do: this car is my almost-daily (I just don't drive it in adverse weather): I can't justify driving my other vehicle while letting this amazing car sit in the garage.

    Obviously keeping my fingers crossed...
     
  19. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    705
    Virginia, USA
    #19 asgor, Jan 26, 2018
    Well, after driving the car for a few hundred miles I think it's now time to "close the loop" - so that my experience may be of assistance to anyone searching this forum in the future for potential solutions to a similar issue.

    In short, the leak has not re-occurred. Following an engine oil + filters change and making quadruple-sure that the oil level is now where it needs to be, no more oil is collecting and running down the outside of the bell housing.

    Once again, I strongly suspect this temporary issue may have been caused by an accidental oil overfill that likely resulted in increased crankcase pressure and consequent light seepage from the main seal. Also, if this matters at all, the oil in the engine had reached the end of its serviceable life and really needed to be changed. Maybe, being on its last leg, the oil viscosity/characteristics had changed enough to allow for this situation to occur. Or maybe the oil filters had aged and were contributing to increased oil pressure (not sure if this can actually happen: expert opinion needed on this one!).

    All is well - without the need to take anything apart. Phew.

    In summary: if this happens to you try doing an oil + filter change (especially if it has been a while since the last oil change), be sure the quantity of oil is correct, and check the bell housing area for leaks over a period of time. In my case I still saw two drops of oil on the garage floor after the first 10-mile drive, but nothing more after that.
     

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