355 Top Won't go Down... and now back up | FerrariChat

355 Top Won't go Down... and now back up

Discussion in '348/355' started by cascade, Feb 6, 2018.

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  1. cascade

    cascade Karting

    Sep 12, 2012
    67
    I am a new 355 owner but not new to Fchat. Picked up a 355 last weekend that had its top just replaced, but I assume not the motor. In any case, when going through top down operation, the seats move forward, windows drop (all is great) and I push the top manually until I hear the beep (which I assume means its ready to go down). After all of that, I just hear a click coming from the center console and nothing happens?

    Ok, I think, the motor is bad. I then go and try to put it up, and it does it flawlessly. I try the top down and back up 2-3x more (the engine is off the entire time, just battery sitting on a trickle) and a loud pop comes from the top. Now the motor engages on the way up, but it doesnt move the top much. I can push it up manually, but not sure what the hell happen.

    The top still doesnt go down and just clicks. Anyone have any idea whats happening?
     
  2. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    So the first question is ... why did you mess with it like that? This is not a Porsche where the top never ever breaks.

    This is a very overly complex top and it is hard to troubleshoot from the internet. But here are some hints:

    1. Check fluid level on the hydraulic with the top down
    2. Check power to the motor, and associated fuses.
    3. Check the engagement of the forks into the pins at the two pivot points left and right
    4. Check the rubber bands
    5. Assist the top down operation by pushing and pulling on the middle bar to fold it into top down position
    6. Finally, convert to a manual top after you have given up all hopes of getting it correct.
     
  3. cascade

    cascade Karting

    Sep 12, 2012
    67
    I was trying to get it to work, which seems like a very very normal thing to attempt. I assumed it wasn't at fault just trying to run a standard motor to open and close the top. But, its too late now.

    1. The top won't go down at all, and I cannot force it down manually. Thats the biggest issue. Why does it just click like the relay is working but the motor is not kicking on? The motor clearly works when going up.
    2. Is there a fuse for each direction of function? As in, there is fuse for up and separate down?
    3. Will do
    4. Will do
    5. Will do
    6. 99% going to happen.
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
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    Ian Riddell
    Dear "Cascade"

    There are two fuses. One for the motor (both directions) and one for the computer.

    To exclude a problem with the computer, does it work using the bypass switches (handbrake on)?

    Who did the top (and is it covered by warranty)? Were the hydraulics bled properly? Was the roof working before the top change (Do you mean the canvas or the whole roof?).

    Cheers
    Ian
     
  5. sevminasyan

    sevminasyan Formula 3

    Jun 24, 2008
    1,156
    Glendale, CA
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Make sure you pull back the cross bar then the top will go down if u have not done so yet.
     
    WATSON likes this.
  6. joe1973

    joe1973 Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2016
    285
    NJ
    Before you go manual.... START the engine for top operation. Ensure all doors closed, handbrake on. AND when you start operation don't let go of the switch esp during pauses in the process. only when you hear a beep - that means there's a system error and if so let go and then resume with gentle guiding of the top in direction intended. This beep is the same as when you manually pull back top from hinged position.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  7. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
    1,933
    PA
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    In addition to what others said you can get inside with a flashlight and hit every single joint and pivot point of the top frame with some light lubricating spray. I agree you should never attempt to put the top down (electrically) without the engine running.

    I had lots of issues with my top when I first got my car, but I fixed them and it has worked flawlessly for 7 years now. I never understood others' instructions about what rod or crossbar to push when or how. So here is how I would do it: after detaching the front "rail" from the windshield area push that rail rearward toward the back of the car while pushing the next crossbar up toward the sky. Only put light pressure on either (about as much force as you can manage with one finger).

    Of course the motorized hydraulics should take it from there. But if they don't you can still put the top down manually without doing the often-hyped manual conversion. There is a brass screw near the motor mechanism that you can turn to release the pressure on the system. Locate that and turn it to release the pressure. Then locate the round metal "cog" on each side's hydraulic rams (the ones closest to the doors). Take a box end wrench (I think 12mm), cover the cog with a protective cloth and slip the wrench over the cog. It should fit perfectly. Pull that cog downward, and the forks should slowly disengage from their mounts. You will need to alternate 2-3 times between driver and passenger sides. Gravity will drop the top behind the seats, requiring only a very subtle nudge to get it fully retracted enough to fasten the tonneau cover.

    Manually putting the top up requires use of the long bolt included in the Spider tool kit and a ratchet and socket. I forget the bolt head size. But if you follow the procedure in the WSM it should go up completely. Takes 6-8 minutes.

    A couple of words of caution: never force anything if it binds, especially under the tremendous hydraulic pressure that little motor pushes through the lines. If these lines burst, it is nearly impossible to get replacements (at least it was in 2011). Also if you do choose to try the emergency switch to retract the top, please note this switch bypasses the microswitch failsafes the top ECU uses. So make sure you manually slide each seat up as far as possible before attempting. If the top catches a seat, it can throw off the alignment, bind the operation and lead to nasty stuff like ripped door leather.

    Good luck.
     
  8. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,630
    CT
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    John Kreskovsky
    Sounds like the elastic straps are weak. If the afore mentioned cross bar doesn't get pulled back a little by the straps the top binds and will not go down. But it sound like you may have done something else as well to the mechanism as well. Perhaps bent something or at least gotten it out of alignment. As complex as the design is, if all the switches and seat position indicators are working, the elastic straps are good, and things are correctly aligned, the top generally works fine. Slow, but fine.
     
    WATSON likes this.
  9. cascade

    cascade Karting

    Sep 12, 2012
    67
    First off, thank you everyone who is contributing and giving suggestions. Great information and let me clarify some things so maybe you guys can help guide me to the correct path.

    RE: The motor works to pull the top down and the seats move auto etc. That to me says the motor works fine as does the ECU.

    RE: The beeps is whats beyond confusing to me. If something is not functioning, there is a beep to stop the process from working. Thats if you say don't have the windows down, or e-brake on. The entire operation does nothing, there is no relay's clicking at all. However, from what I understand there is a qualifying beep that happens when you pull the top back (pulling the center bar down) half way that means: "you can proceed and the system will engage". Am I wrong on that as it states this will happen in the 355 manual Section H71? Is there supposed to be 0 beeps? At this point is when I just hear the click of the relay. I don't understand if thats a qualifying beep or something went wrong.

    It sounds to me like everything is working but maybe A) misaligned or B) user error due to extreme complexity.

    To recap:
    • Motor for top works going back up and trys to engage so its not fuses for Motor or ECU
    • Automatic window drop, seat moving etc all working
    • Beep occurs when top is pulled back 50% as per everyone's instructions
    Process flow on my side:
    1. Get in car which is on a trickle and an optima yellow top battery. Not turning on car due to fumes and winter in Chicago [avoiding death] but put into position for all power accessories to work
    2. Unlatch the top and pull back and the windows drop, beep occurs
    3. Seats begin to move forward as intended
    4. Then... nothing
    Here is the video on youtube to show what has been doing on:



     
  10. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
    1,933
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    Kevin
    I wish that video would have shown the top position better....like from outside the car. I cannot tell how it is folding, but you scare me when you wrote about pulling a bar DOWN. No bars should be pulled down. Your motor is clearly working to drive the secondary rams. That is good.

    My guess is you have either extremely old and thick hydraulic fluid or there is a microswitch somewhere not engaging properly. If each switch in the folding sequence does not send the OK signal to the ECU the operation will cease....and that may be what you have here.
     
  11. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
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    John Kreskovsky
    The elastic strap pull back one of the linkages. If they don't the rams don't have any leverage and the top won't move. When this happens you can hear the pump motor start to strain but the top will not move an inch. I personally had this happen and the fix was to replace the elastic straps. Before doing that I just tugged on them a little to get the linkage in the correct position. You can see the elastic strap behind the dog leg linkage piece.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    #12 Qavion, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    Relays can click (indicating solenoid operation), but that is no guarantee the contacts aren't burnt out or broken. Have you tried interchanging the relays?

    I suggested using the bypass system because it bypasses all the sensors. This would eliminate a position sensor/switch problem. During bypass ops, only the bypass switches, handbrake switch, relays and motor and actuators are in operation. Of course, during bypass operation, you have to make sure that the roof is going up/down in the correct arc.
     
  13. emac

    emac Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2014
    851
    upstate SC
    Full Name:
    ernest
    Listen to what JohnK is saying. When I watched your video, I saw you just push the top back. That is correct IF the elastic straps are working, and I bet they arent. Look at the bar that the straps connect too. Pull THAT bar back as you push the top back. As JohnK said it will not work without that bar back. Also, my top works well, but barely works with the motor off. I dont suggest running the top with the motor off.

    If the bar is back, and the top still does nothing, then check relays and microswitches.
     
  14. joe1973

    joe1973 Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2016
    285
    NJ
    I still ask you try with motor running. 2 mins wont kill you. If it doesn't work you'll know right away and can cut engine sooner. If you bring to dealer, be prepared for BIG $$$. If you convert to manual, it will be a blemish on your ownership experience and later resale value. They never work perfectly, but should do the job while you casually sip a cappuccino..
     
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  15. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
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    Kevin
    I think we are saying the same thing. To be clear, I am recommending pushing up on the first crossbar (circled in red) which is the same as the forward bar in your picture that the elastic strap connects to.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  16. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
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    Kevin
    emac likes this.
  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    John Kreskovsky
    The thing that b0thers me id that "loud pop" from the top. I'd be looking for hydraulic fluid leaking out somewhere. Could have popped a hydraulic line or internal cylinder seal. Loud pops aren't a good thing.
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Left hand on front, right hand on crossbar.... and operate the switch with your right foot? :D
     
  19. Challenge

    Challenge Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2002
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    Until it beeps! Then use the switch. Geez
     
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  20. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    John Kreskovsky
    Well, the bottom line is that you have a problem. Either the elastic straps aren't doing their job, something was misaligned when replacing the top, or there is a problem with the hydraulic rams or pump. In your first post you said after trying repeatedly (mistake) you heard a loud pop from the top. You need to figure out what that is. If it wasn;t doing that initially then you may have damaged something.

    If you don't know how it's supposed to work you probably won't be able to fix it.

    Who replaced the top? Can you take the car to them?
     
  21. Lionworks Auto

    Lionworks Auto Formula 3

    Oct 16, 2013
    1,016
    Worthington OH
    Full Name:
    Ed
    Strongly recommend you stop doing this with the motor off. Trickle charger likely not sending enough juice to power the amp spike and supply to rest of components - if you fry an Ecu somewhere just compounding the issue. Middle bar should be pushed “up” to a beep. Then only use the side access at center console behind driver seat emergency switch to raise and lower - and be careful not to push both sides (open and close buttons) at once. There is an “O” and “C” crappily printed on each side if not worn off...


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  22. cascade

    cascade Karting

    Sep 12, 2012
    67
    I thought I would update the progress - everything works great. The issue was something that reminds me of my F430 radio. The shop went ahead and looked at everything, retightened and even had a bent bolt that they built a new one for since no one sells it (props to Giovanni@Autosprint as always). they also bled the system and said it was low on oil. After that, the top still did the same thing, but when using the manual switch worked perfect. Today, I tried to just use the top down feature (the proper one) and everything worked perfectly. I guess it just had to go up and down once with the over ride to now work perfectly.

    Thank you to all who gave great advice. This thread should be a sticky because it had an immense amount of great data, images and videos.
     
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