Looking at a 15k mile 328 GTS that looks perfect but has no service records

Hi all, (FYI I posted this to Ferrari Life too yesterday but it hasn't been put up yet so I'm posting here too)

I'm looking at a ~15k mile 328 GTS that is for sale at Gullwing Motor Cars. I have reviewed the CarFax. The first owner purchased it in 1989, and in the next 11 years it was driven about 175 miles. Then it was serviced at Ferrari Long Island. After that, it was driven maybe 800 miles per year to where it is now. The dealer (a very respectable dealer) does not have service records, but there are 2 places (Ferrari of Long Island and a place by the name of Precision Performance in Freeport, NY) that the car has been serviced at. I am going to call both of them and see if I can get any details on service, and some history of the car (sales, what the owners were like, where it was serviced next, what happened, etc — all of the investigative information).

The car, visually, looks like 15k miles. It looks almost like a time capsule with the exception of maybe one leather piece. The CarFax has a mileage discrepancy, but it's very obvious that the NY State just accidentally placed an extra 0 at the end during the inspection — super obvious. Of course I'd have a PPI done and whatnot.

But I wanted to see if anybody knew about the car, or had any thoughts. From Google, I have gathered that the car allegedly was auctioned off for about $25k more than it's being sold for today on a sketchy website in
Jun of 2017 — more on that later. The car in those photos has a license plate of "FBEULLER" in NY, which, if you input to CarFax, still goes to this car, so the photos are definitely of this car. And there is a plate surround on the car in those pictures. Also, that website reported the engine size as 0 and the mileage incorrectly despite it matching the CarFax in the picture of the dash — and the auction end date does not coincide with anything really on the CarFax other than an inspection — no title events — so it may be a fake/scam website, despite the fact that those photos are only on that website, and they are really of this car (and there are no title issues with the car, etc, and the dealer with it is trusted and actually has the car, so that event isn't really a "concern"). A reverse image search yielded some garbage results, and some of the images were only on that website. Peculiar that the website seems fake (or at least poorly done — and the info on it sometimes wrong in a very dumb manner), but the images definitely match the car. I plan to call them tomorrow. The VIN is ZFFXA20A9K0082914. The car is at Gullwing Motor Cars. I would appreciate any help, if anybody knows anything about this car, or has any advice. Of course, I will be putting my skills to work in trying to track down everything I can about this car by calling dealers, state governments, and such (to find records, where the car has been, what it has been through or had done, owners, etc).

I have been waiting for the perfect one for years... and this looks like it could be the one if the due diligence checks out. Priced reasonably (IMO) for the beautiful, impeccable condition and super lower mileage car that it is (1989, with ABS, red on tan, looks absolutely perfect and like it was 15k miles), mainly because the dealer can't say when it last had a major service. Also, I'm not buying this to have it sit in the garage... This is a car that I have been seeking out for a long time, and have desired for even longer — it's one of my favorite cars ever — and I don't mind spending more to get one that could be "close to new" (or as close as you can get for a car from 1989) for that experience — to drive it — even if others would buy it to leave it in the garage.

 

Sorry, I don't have much more in my records other that it is a Rosso Corsa / Beige (you would say "Tan") car, and that it is the "eigth before the last" 328 imported in the US, so a very late production 328 indeed.
I have only 55 cars produced after that one (there might be one or two more), of which seven are North American models; the majority of these 55 are swiss, UK (RHD) and Japanese cars. Euro production stopped at 82877.
The last one 328 produced - the end of the line - is 83136, a swiss market GTS.
Rgds

 

Wow — that's actually really cool, and good to know. Thanks very much for the info!

 

Get a good pre-purchase, make sure there is nothing mechanically wrong, especially check for no rust or damaged areas. It's worth the $300 investment believe me!
Plan on budgeting for a major service if you can't see on paper one has been done recently. Perhaps that could be negotiated in the deal. That car looks clean, get a legit guy to check it out.
The 328 is a very reliable car... I wouldn't be afraid of it if the PPI checks out healthy.

 

That's exactly my plan. Thorough PPI (I'm not phased by cost, even if it hits $1k, for example), and budgeted a major service. They're firm on the price, and looking at the market for similar cars, it seems priced very, very competitively (which they say is because they don't have the service history and can't say it was done). But as long as it passes a thorough PPI from a Ferrari expert, and I do a major service, I think I'll be confident. I have heard that the car is quite reliable.

 

That's some kind of small bonus, but buy only on the three usual criteria: condition, condition, and condition.
The place of the car in the production line is not that important, the very last one produced, 83136, was for sale in France two years ago and stayed so for at least a year and a half, the price being too high.
The 328 didn't change at all after December 1988 (chassis 79660 if my memory serves me, etc...) so there is no change in parts, ect, not even in minute details from 79660 to the very last one.
That said, these last cars being produced after Enzo Ferrari's death (August 1988) were sold at a time when their value was booming, so many late production cars were actually driven very sparingly; some were even "put on a shelf" when new and not driven at all. This to say that a low mileage on a '89 is by no means an exception; but of course, some others were still driven a lot.

And after a good PPI, should you decide to buy it, you would probably need to at least have a "complete service" (belts included; not necessary a "full major", but change of fluids and belts, just to have a date from which you know the basics have been done) done just before driving it, if the dealer can't produce any history.

Rgds

 

Reliable they are indeed, I can attest. I have two '89, a GTB and a GTS. it will be ten years this september for the GTB, and 20.000 kms (about 13.000 miles) outside preventive maintenance, nothing so far: I mean: no nothing; the car always starts, always brings me back. Same for the GTS: seven years already this january, and 16.000 kms (10.000 miles). I'm touching wood.
The 328 is usually a reliable machine, if you don't cheat on maintenance.
Rgds

 

Thanks for the info again. I definitely won't use it to base my purchase off of, I just thought it was kind of cool. That makes sense about Enzo's death, so this car was likely purchased and kept in a garage for those 11 years where it had under 200 miles put on it, and then sold — but that gives an extra reason why that may be plausible, over the typical "collector's"/"investor's" desires.

Definitely doing an absolutely thorough PPI. Visual condition looks amazing. Will have to see what the PPI yields. And I would definitely be doing a service, whichever is appropriate based off what we know and don't know, and the results of the PPI.

 

Thanks for the info. That's awesome — and generally what I recall about the cars. I am definitely looking to hear more experiences too from others about reliability (just to add to the pool and my confidence ). That's also what the buyer's guide on Ferrari Life suggested. I'm knocking on wood for you too — hope it stays that reliable — and hope mine (possibly to be) will be too!

 

Hi and welcome,

I just wanted to say you DO know it was serviced, those are good NYC shops.
You are just missing the papers.

Also I can vouch for Gullwing, Peter and I have done business before.
Go get it!!

The belts have date stamps on them, get the picture we can tell you how old.
Your next service will be three years from that date!
HTH....

 

Hi! Thanks for the welcome!

I do know that it was serviced, but there are issues nonetheless. It was serviced from 2001 to 2004 consistently at Ferrari LI (according to CarFax records) and then it didn't receive service there until 2007. After that, there was nothing, until 2013 at Precision Performance. After that, nothing. As for what happened in between... I don't know — maybe it was at a different shop that didn't report to CarFax, maybe they stopped reporting to CarFax, something. I don't have records, of course, so I have to operate off the CarFax. I called Ferrari LI to get insight on the car, records, what happened, owners, etc, and when the manager returns from "Ferrari School" he's going to call me. I have called Precision repeatedly but the phone just hangs up. As I had mentioned, I don't know what happened from 2004 to 2007, or 2007 to 2013 — why Ferrari LI was no longer used, if it was being serviced, etc, — and same from 2013-2017. We will have to see what insights Ferrari LI and Precision Performance can provide — and see where the gaps remain, and why. It could just be that they stopped reporting to CarFax, or Precision was doing the work and only reported that one. Or it wasn't being serviced. Or it was being serviced elsewhere. Hopefully, in any event, they can shed some light as to what happened, fill in some history, and direct me where I need to go if it was serviced elsewhere that did not report to CarFax. Note, it did maintain its inspections.

I've reached out re: date stamps.

Also, I love Gullwing too, really! Just doing my due-diligence on every car (history, PPI, pricing, etc).

 

Update: I decided to do more research into Precision. It appears, through Google Streetview, they closed sometime between Sept. 2015 and Sept. 2016 (that's when the sign went away and the building was repainted).

I then looked in corporate registrations in NY, and the company was dissolved in 2017. I will try to reach out to the owner to get more details, because the company's phone number doesn't work.

 

You are worrying too much. Inspect the car, have a PPI done. Assuming it's OK, do a belt/tensioner change and forget about searching for service records. It's a 328, it's neither delicate nor high tech!

My '89, which I bought in '08 has needed nothing other than normal maintenance and has been totally reliable..in contrast to any of the 3 MBs my wife has owned during the same period.

 

I know I'm probably over-worrying. Not finding out all of the info is by no means a deal breaker. So long as the PPI goes well and then I have it serviced. I just like to know as much as I can.

 

This may sound silly on the surface but a lack of service records on a car with 15K is almost a non issue.

Lack of service records on one with 86,000 would be of concern.

My point is that 328 hasn't been used and if you intend to use it, you need to go through it anyway based on the LACK of use.

If it were me and I wanted it, if it passed the compression/leakdown test and my visual, hell I would get it and start your own service history.

Buy it, put new belts on it, change the fluids and hoses and start driving it. Repair as needed as the mileage increases and reveals more issues.

 

I totally agree and understand. That was my thinking, too. I would nonetheless just like to put the effort in and try, as opposed to not try, to find the records, and more information about this amazing car's history (I'm just like that — I like to know as much about a car as I can, etc — I actually enjoy it). In any event, even if I can't find the records, if the PPI is good and everything goes well (read: nothing crazy happens in the near future in life), I will do all the service myself (belts, etc) and start my own history!

 

Keep focused, though.

15K mileage sounds cool but it is about as from from ideal as it can be for a car you want to enjoy on the road. If you just want the car - fine. If you want a car to trailer to concours, even better BUT if you want to get behind the wheel, there are far less expensive ways to drive really nice 328's.

You are going to pay a premium for the low mileage and you are going to be burning hundred dollar bills in that equity with every mile you put on it - not to mention that first big ass service bill to get it road-trustworthy.

Just food for thought.

 

I don't plan on trailering it to concours, but I will keep it in excellent condition. I have thought about this, and I know I could spend a lot less on other cars, but allow me to explain why I am perfectly happy to spend money on this and drive it.

For one, this car is clean and perfect unlike any that I have seen before, that weren't specifically purchased (and restored) for concours. The mileage comes with this fact.

Secondly, I have wanted this car for a very long time. It is an emotional purchase in a way, but not one without logic (as far as evaluating the vehicle, desires, finances, etc) Buying this, in a way, is like buying one brand new — at least as close to that as possible. It doesn't look like a "used" Ferrari like many of the others — it almost looks new — and I imagine it feels almost like one would feel in 1989 too. Sure, it doesn't feel like a "new" car, but it's as close to a new 1989 as I can basically get. That is very valuable to me. It's almost as if I actually purchased the car new and can drive it — or as close to that as possible — but much, much closer than with other cars that are available, which look/feel like they were used. I typed this really quickly and briefly because I'm going into a meeting but I hope it makes sense. I can explain better/more clearly later if needed.

 

You don't have to explain. Obviously you understand what it is and the costs and as long as you are satisfied, that is all that matters. "Market value" is a funny thing. There are two 308's out there that have a truck load of sentimental value to me. One is an 80 and the other an 81. Not the most desirable years but none of that matters to me if they were for sale. I would pay a premium if it took that to park either in my garage. In other words, I'll pay what I want to pay for the car I want and I don't care what the market says I should pay. I would do it if they hadn't had a service since 1988. Doesn't matter. That is not the point. I just want it.

Glad you found a car you wanted!

 

My '89 - just over 21k miles now, running into my 7th year of ownership, bought at about 14.5k miles, the car had low miles but it moved at least once a month, I know the previous owner and I knew how particular he is about his cars

but this one had comprehensive service history with all documentation, km readings lined up etc.

For preventative maintenance I replaced fuel hoses (had the fuel tanks drained in the process of removing the bottoms fuel hoses, most water and air-hoses even the fuel-filler hose, front wheel bearing greased replaced, new heat sponges between engine and fuel tanks and got the Thermostat and gasket replaced as well, the car had its major just before I took ownership back in 2011 and that included, gear lever seal, cam-seals, cam o-rings etc (done with the cam-belts )

I've done all of this again end of 2016 incl. the tensioner bearings. I observed how good and glean the gearbox looked when the sump was removed after draining the gear oil even the sump gasket was near perfect ! I even have video footage,

I upgraded the champion spark plugs to NGK irridium, fuel filter replaced (again ), got the suspension rubbers inspected which are still good (amazing considering the age of the car )

my 328 starts easy, feels solid on the road. the build quality still amazes me, within 5 minutes my oil gauge starts to move and the car settles to proper temps. Oh yes I have fast windows unlike my first 328 from 1986.

All electrics perfect and the heaters works really nice early on a cold morning drive...

My battery was replaced when I took ownership and its still good going into my 7 years of ownership and its a standard Raylite 652 (I pull the battery isolator after a drive everytime..

cheers
J

 

I noticed you DIDN"T mention how well the air conditioner works!

 

I'd suggest you allocate $ 10,000 post purchase for all of the things you'll need to have fixed and stuff you want done after purchase. Good luck with it, sounds like a beautiful car.

 

I was thinking like $6k if the PPI comes back perfect — for the maintenance — but $10k is no problem. I will adjust my thinking accordingly. Better safe than sorry anyway.

 

It is indeed a funny thing. Thanks for understanding. Hopefully all goes well! Also, I realize now that I've seen your names around these forums many times...

 

Sounds not bad to me!!