Ferrari 488 Pista | Page 38 | FerrariChat

Ferrari 488 Pista

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ilikefastcars1, Feb 20, 2018.

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  1. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    So, when you drive a car you can discern between 1400 and 1500 kilos? That's funny! The only reason that weight is quoted (between comparable cars) is for comparative reasons and the most fair way is the dry weight. The feeling behind the wheel is a different matter altogether. An actually heavier car might feel lighter on its wheels than a lighter one.
     
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  2. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    No I never said anything of the kind. You are imagining things. My point still stands.
     
  3. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Your point is that the kerb weight is the more relevant. My point is that it's just a number and doesn't necessarily translate to the the driving experience. Dry weight on the other hand is a fair measurement between cars as each car carries different fuel-liquid loads.
     
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  4. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    #929 Lukeylikey, Mar 11, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
    I’m with Realzeus. The feeling in the car is only partly contributed to by weight (and we haven’t even begun to talk about weight distribution and unsprung weight - the latter the most influential of all - and neither element revealed by kerb weight comparisons). Actual road weight comparison is rather pointless because of differences in the size of the fuel tank, as already mentioned.

    You need to compare the weight of the car fair to all, which is ironically a measure nobody uses. Dry weight plus all oils and brake fluid but without fuel (unless you use the same kg amount not a percentage of the fuel tank). You could add the 75kg for the driver if you like, it doesn’t matter because it is a comparison.

    Dry weight is the closest to a fair comparison because mostly these cars have similar sized blocks, transmissions and braking systems so those fluids will be the same or close in weight between competitors. But they can have vastly different fuel tank capacities. My old 12C took about half the volume (and therefore weight) that the 458 does for example. Therefore a kerb weight to kerb weight comparison of those two cars is useless for comparing how weight will impact the driving experience. It is an inherently unfair and misleading comparison.

    And what about the difference in option weights? None of them mention or give any feel as to what that works out to be without adding it up yourself and doing quite a bit of research. Weight distribution, unsprung weight and (loosely) dry weight taken together are the best way to gauge and compare how a car will feel.
     
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  5. zakeen

    zakeen Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2004
    989
    Czech Republic
    My 348 has a 110L fuel tank I think, while my Speciale has what 60-70L?. its like 40kg difference... Dry weight in this sense is meaningless.
     
  6. 458-Italia

    458-Italia Formula 3

    Jan 10, 2014
    1,726
    France
    Speciale’s tank : 86 l x0,755 = 65 kg

    348’s tank : 95l x 0,755 = 72 kg
     
  7. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Also, I don’t buy the ‘Ferrari cheats weight’ line. All these weight calculations and definitions are driven by homologation rules. They are used in multiple calculations to determine various things and often related to emissions plus, especially important for commercial vehicles, axle loading. So, the purpose of them is not to drive a comparison for which car is going to be faster around a track. They are for other very technical, safety, economy and emissions related reasons and the measurement of them is heavily regulated.

    The only thing you could perhaps say is that Ferrari choose to use the lowest possible weight figure and lowest possible option configuration in their marketing. But what do you expect? So long as you compare the same dry weight basis with other manufacturers you have a reasonable comparison.
     
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  8. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    I don’t really follow that logic? Dry weight will give you a relative comparison between the 348 and the 458. Kerb weight will not because it will take into account the extra 40-50 litres fuel weight which is not really ‘the car’.
     
  9. 458-Italia

    458-Italia Formula 3

    Jan 10, 2014
    1,726
    France
    Only Kerb Weight is sense
    Dry weight has no interest
     
  10. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Hmmm. Good point.
     
  11. 458-Italia

    458-Italia Formula 3

    Jan 10, 2014
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    Dry weight is a nonsense :

    À car without fuel, motor oil, cooling liquid, brake fluid, battery can’t move isn’t it ?

    Dry weight is without any fluid and battery
     
  12. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    But it is about comparison to other vehicles. Dry weight is the most accurate because other variables are taken out. It is irrelevant that you can’t drive the car because it is dry. Kerb weight assumes I am 75kg......so it is equally inaccurate!
     
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  13. 458-Italia

    458-Italia Formula 3

    Jan 10, 2014
    1,726
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    There is a mistake :
    Kerb weight is (DIN) without driver
    CE Weight is with 68 kg driver and 7 kg luggage (total 75 kg)

    Porsche doesn’t use dry weight only DIN norm (Kerb weight) and CE norm
     
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  14. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    MP-12C's fuel tank is not half that of 458.

    From 2011 MP-12 and 2013 458 owners manuals:
    Fuel: MP-12C: 72 litres, 458: 86 litres
    Engine Oil: MP-12C: 8 litres, 458: 10 litres
    Coolant: MP-12C: 20 litres, 458: 16.5 litres
    Windscreen fluid: MP-12C: 4 litres, 458: 5 litres

    and so on.

    At full tanks, the weight difference of fuel is only 10.5kg. Is of the order of 0.5% of total weight of car - so negligible.
    Everything other than fuel should be at the manufacturer's recommended levels, so nothing to equalise there.

    So on the one hand you are saying 100kg of total weight difference is doesn't matter but on the other hand, you'd rather use an unverified and potentially biased manufacturer's dry weight claim because of lack of comparability from a 10-15kg difference fuel tank sizes? Makes no sense.

    Looking at the LaFerrari case discussed above, the 350kg gap between the claimed empty weight of 1255kg and reported wet weights around 1600kg cannot be explained by adding fluids and even a driver, unless you start filling its 86 litre fuel tank with liquid gold. Ever wondered why the LaFerrari dry weight is no longer on the Ferrari website?

    To my knowledge, manufacturer reported empty weights are not subject to legal scrutiny unlike reported EU/Din/Curb weights. It seems to be a marketing race among supercars with claiming lightweight options etc.

    Even if these dry weights were accurate and unbiased, I would agree with @Lukeylikely that the best measure would be the weight with all fluids including a known/fixed amount of fuel (adding driver) - that is still a lot closer than dry weight to the configuration of the car when you are actually driving it. If it is dry weight, with no fluids, you can't even start the car! How's that more relevant?
     
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  15. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
    494
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Here is my take on weight.
    Can I feel 100kg (220lbs) of weight difference in a 1600kg car? Yes, it is very apparent. Can I feel 10kg (22lbs) of weight difference? Of course not.

    In the press world, Ferrari has always been known for claiming "magical" numbers, not just in terms of dry weight, but 0-60, lap times and etc. It's all about marketing and that's fine. For magazine testings, Ferrari always send out their team of engineers with their 7 sets of tires, to make sure their cars run on optimum level. Again, that is fine, until people discover that their 458 Italia press car runs faster than a customer's 458 Speciale (see here ).

    So when my friend and I were doing corner balance and alignment on our 918 Spyder and LaFerrari, it wasn't a shock for us to see the large discrepancy in actual wet weight.
     
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  16. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Oh, you know cars too old chum! Cheers! :)
     
  17. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    The comparison mentioned earlier - 458 v 12C and also the Speciale v 675 - according to Zeperfs are excerpted here. The ‘verified EU’ weight is indepently measured and shows both Ferraris’ weights to be closer to the measured weight than the McLarens. The EU verified weight includes a percentage of fuel tank, which given the Ferrari has a bigger tank means it is the McLaren which is flattered.

    I’m afraid I don’t buy the press cars are fixed stuff. The Ferrari support-team and ‘7 sets’ of spare tyres is very understandable. I have live experience of being on the receiving end of press tests where the press trash the tyres and car and then criticise its handling. All manufacturers, if they are smart, make sure the car is as good as it can be for the press to test - best not to leave more than you have to to chance.

    And so it is with weights. No doubt you can get a car with a lot of options that does not reflect the claimed or press car weights, but then as soon as I sit in one it is out too. I still believe a fair comparison takes into account unsprung weight, weight distribution and directly comparable measures of weight - and in that order.
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  18. hanz

    hanz Karting
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    Dec 24, 2014
    87
    anyone know when the configurator will be available with dealers?
     
  19. Garretto

    Garretto F1 Rookie

    Sep 3, 2003
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    Rodolfo Di Pietro
    Re weight, ideally all manufacturers should quote some kind of kerb weight, meaning all fluids, car ready to go, fuel tank empty if you'd like. We would all love that as it would be representative of what you drive and you can compare different cars.

    What really happens is very simple, as there's no strict rule about this, all manufacturers tend to quote the lighter figures, to the point that no one would risk to quote a kerb weight if their rival will maybe quote the dry weight and those figures are out to the media. Figures transcend to the public many times without scrutining if it was a kerb or a dry weight.

    Bottom line, quote lowest possible weight so no one can "cheat" after you with a lighter standard.
     
  20. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    These comparisons are not trustworthy. One driver could have had a delayed reaction, or could short shift, or carry more weight, etc, etc.
     
  21. jo_ker

    jo_ker Karting

    Mar 29, 2014
    168
    Germany/Austria
    ferrari is cheating. with each model. each test. believe it or not. anyhow.
    i still like them.

    When Pista orders will be able to be placed? Meaning when the configuration can be locked into the system / Modis?
    My dealer said not before April.
     
  22. jo_ker

    jo_ker Karting

    Mar 29, 2014
    168
    Germany/Austria
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  23. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,201
    Still no US base price and options price list?
     
  24. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Hate to say but I am afraid you have mixed up your numbers again. For example with 458 vs 12C. The Ferrari web site 458 empty weight is 1380kg with forged wheels/racing seats. However, the Zeperfs 1485kg is the kerb weight from the 458 owners manual. 12C's empty weight is 1301kg with lighweight options as stated on zepefs and also in the manual. So, 12C's 1301 kg should be compared to 458's 1380kg for dry weights.

    Then the EU vs dry weight gap for the 458 is 295kg, and for the 12C is 247kg. Even if you take off that extra 9kg of fuel weight difference for the 90% full tank (tank sizes 458: 86 litres vs 12C: 72 litres) then the gap for 458 is still 39kg more. So, opposite of what you say.

    If you really, really want that last 10kg of precision you can hold the fuel weights constant across the two cars. If you did that, the 458 weighs 118kg more than the 12C. Compare that with only a 79kg difference in dry weights.

    Regardless of whether the dry weights claimed are accurate, the real operating weight difference is the 118kg in favour of the 12C.

    Hope this helps.
     
  25. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Barry K
    I recall reading elsewhere that someone had been told at Geneva that using the euro conversion rate of 1.18 for US $ should be good enough for options, but don't know that for sure.
     
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