F430 Removing F1 Actuator to tighten bleed screws? | FerrariChat

F430 Removing F1 Actuator to tighten bleed screws?

Discussion in '360/430' started by nessus-gte, May 1, 2018.

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  1. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    My 2007 F430 loses F1 pressure and runs the pump increasingly more often as the car's temperature increases. This is until the pump is running much too often at every 20-30 seconds. There are no evident F1 fluid leaks. I use Launch X431 for basic F1 diagnostics. Here is what I have done so far:
    • Accumulator bulb replacement
    • F1 Fluid change
    • Bleed cycle
    I have seen the question about tightening the bleed screws posted on Fchat before, but without much detail. Is this the next logical step for me?
     
  2. Davet18

    Davet18 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 1, 2014
    17
    NE Florida
    If any of your bleed screws are leaking you will see fluid seeping between the transmission and the actuator. Are you loosing any fluid anywhere, ie accumulator, clutch actuator or Ediff, if not, I would look at what diagnostics you can be run around the pump and the accumulator. Could be a leaking bladder in the accumulator.
     
  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,665
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    Dominick
    I thought if the screws were loose it just causes the fluid to head back up to the reservoir...hense why you need to loosen them to properly bleed the system

    Is op thinking they are loose and not building pressure in actuator?

    Trying to follow here
    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  4. LorenzoR

    LorenzoR F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    The bleed screws are in back of the actuator as in the pic. If your not seeing any fluid leaking how do you know your loosing pressure. Could it be that your relay is beginning to stick causing the pump to run more. ?
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  5. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
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    Victor
    I think you're on the right track. Once the belly pan and rear bumper are removed, it's really easy to get to. I've seen loose bleed screws on at least two 430's. They seem tight enough to not leak fluid but loose enough to let air in over an extended period of time. The cars seemed to operate properly when cold. When they warmed up, errors began to appear. I would guess that as the air in the lines warmed up, it expanded to a larger bubble which caused the issues.

    How did you run a bleed cycle without opening the bleed screws?
     
  6. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    Thank you for that picture. It makes this concept much more clear.
    I ruled out the relay because I wasn't experiencing long or erratic priming from the pump, just frequent priming. When the car is cold the pump primes normally. It kicks on for 5 seconds after a couple of minutes. As things warm up, the frequency of the priming increases significantly but the duration increases only slightly. Eventually, the car is priming every 30 seconds for about 7 seconds at a time. This behavior is consistent and repeatable.

    Good question. I didn't run the full bleed cycle with the bleed screws. What I did was an air purge like what Juri did in his video on a 360.

    ()

    Your experience with the bleed screws letting air in but not leaking fluid, is exactly what I am thinking about. As I move forward with removing the actuator. My first question is:

    Does the heat shield need to be removed to properly access the bolts on the actuator? Pictures below.

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  7. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
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    Feb 25, 2010
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    subscribed
     
  8. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,641
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    Mark
    You are absolutely correct. There's a bit of misinformation in the thread. The bleed is by internal ports to the low pressure return side of the actuator (that small rubber hose clamped on to the side).

    If the screws were so loose that fluid was leaking externally they would be close to falling out altogether.
     
  9. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    Mark! This is excellent information. My knowledge of the F1 system is Novice at best. I am ultimately looking for more technical information just like this, so I can be confident in my next troubleshooting steps. I believe that removing the actuator is still the next step for me and that a proper bleed cycle and tightening the screws is in order. My next questions will be about the best method for actuator removal.

    Sadly, my WSM is missing the Actuator section D6.05. So at this point, I am eyeballing the actuator and determining the best way to get to all the bolts. All advice is welcome!
     
  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,665
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    Thanks for confirming my thoughts ...I kinda of figured based on my experience and reading but don't want to say 100 precent unless I knew for sure

    Thanks ..I will be more assertive next time

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  11. mb60

    mb60 Rookie

    Jan 23, 2013
    13
    Miami
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    Matt
    Charles,

    Mark and Dominick are correct, most times when the actuator bleed screws are "leaking" they are just loose enough to allow fluid to bypass internally. I have never seen actuator bleeds screws loose enough to cause external fluid leakage, as Mark said they would have to be falling out for that to happen.

    Yes you need to remove the heat shield to remove the actuator. If your car still has the factory cats you will need remove the cat on that side as well to get the actuator completely off.

    Another thing that commonly causes leakage of system pressure is the e-diff control valve. If you find that your bleeds screws are not loose I would look there next.
     
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  12. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    Thank you, Matt. I owe you one. Ediff control valve is on my hit list.
    I do have stock cats and removing them definitely seems required. I am glad to get confirmation on that.

    There is one last item on my mind before I remove the cat, heat shield and actuator.

    Is the F1 Actuator Alignment Tool necessary for reassembly? I have seen off-the-cuff responses that it is not required. I tend to suspect this is true, as long as I am only tightening bleed screws. Any input on this would be highly valued!
    [​IMG]
     
  13. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,665
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    #13 flash32, May 2, 2018
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
    I believe if you make sure you are in neutral before you remove it u won't need to recenter ...but make sure

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  14. Davet18

    Davet18 Rookie
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    Jan 1, 2014
    17
    NE Florida
    Apologize for the misinformation on the leaking bleed screws. One of mine leaked externally because of very slight damage to the bleed screw oring after a bleed procedure ,so I thought that it would also leak when it was loose.
     
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  15. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M
    Centering tool not required if you are only removing and refitting the actuator.
    It is to realign the selection/engagement mechanism on the actuator shaft after the actuator has been reassembled and requires an SD2 or similar to carry out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
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    Fantastic! That is the level of detail I was looking for. I will conclusively not worry about the alignment tool. :cool:
     
  17. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    But like I also said make sure it is in neutral before removing
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  18. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
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    Charles
    My mission to reach the actuator continues. As posted earlier the heat shield protecting the actuator needs to be removed. This means that catalytic converter needs to be removed, because there is just no room otherwise.

    Removing the cat should be easy, right? All you have to do is unclamp the inlet then unclamp the outlet and twist it out.
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    LOL! NO! I am quite naive about decade old F430 exhausts. There is no way in hell my cat is going to budge from the outlet clamp. Plus there wasn't enough room to try and twist it around. So getting to the actuator was going to be a lot more involved than I was expecting. I was going to have to remove the bumper and pull out the cat and cat-back together. :(

    I followed Voicey's awesome guide on rear bumper removal.
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    Unbolted the last of the exhaust brackets and pulled the exhaust.
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    Removed the heat shield and FINALLY the actuator is accessible.
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    Next... I need to learn the proper bleed procedure with the bleed screws. Any insight to some good references on that topic would be much appreciated! Hopefully, this will lead to the end of my F1 troubles and back to enjoying the car on the road, where she belongs. :)
     
  19. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    Here is a few pages form manual - torque values on first page ..then later how to re-install actuator and the last page on bleed procedure

    Do you have access to a sd2 or leonardo or x431 diag unit - that is the way to bleed the actuator
     

    Attached Files:

  20. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
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    Mike M
    Looks like you managed to shear two of the exhaust studs or did they screw out of the flange?
     
  21. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    Thanks, Dominick. I will follow those torque values when reinstalling the actuator.

    In the WSM pages you attached, I don't find reference to the bleed screws on the actuator. I only see clutch draining steps (section D3.04). My manual is missing the very important sections relating to the F1 system. :( I suspect the details on the actuator bleed screws were in those missing pages somewhere in sections D6.03 through D6.05.

    This is why I am looking for some advice on the bleed screws. I think the way to do it is to loosen the screws during the bleed cycle for a few seconds and tighten them down hard.

    I use a Launch X431 for the bleed. Here is my thread on that kit I bought for $775.
     
  22. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    I didn't shear any exhaust bolts. I was lucky. That exhaust flange has two studs on the muffler side and two studs on the cat-back side. It holds together with two nuts on top and two nut on bottom.
     
  23. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,665
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    I somehow managed to cut off last page - here you go - this should be what you looking for
     

    Attached Files:

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  24. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M
    Thanks for the correction
     
  25. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
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    Charles
    :D:D
    Dominick, that page is precisely what I needed! Many thanks.
    The bleeding shall commence... o_O
     

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