348 mystery part on transmission magnetic plug | FerrariChat

348 mystery part on transmission magnetic plug

Discussion in '348/355' started by mondialdave, May 26, 2018.

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  1. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
    16
    Cambridge UK
    Full Name:
    David
    Hi, Just started my engine-out major today here in the UK, and after draining the transmission oil I found this on the magnetic plug. Also some black/grey sludge!.
    Does anyone have any idea what it could be?
    It measures 2.1mm thick when laid flat (Vertical height) I have had a look at the parts manual but can't see anything that resembles it.
    Any help would be most appreciated.
    Dave.
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  2. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
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    Stu R
    #2 StuR, May 26, 2018
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
    Dave,

    As an ex-archaeologist dealing with pottery shards etc, the first thing I’d do is complete the circle to describe / help find the remainder of the offending article.

    If it’s metal and 2.1mm thick, then that seems to be a relatively ‘substantial ‘ washer/clip. Did you ditch the sludge - in case there’s more in it...

    I can only think of the thrust pinion pieces that maybe come in that size, but can’t imagine it’s one of those... sorry. I’m sure real help will be along shortly...

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  3. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
    712
    Treasure Coast Florida
    Full Name:
    MATT
    Jesus. The scary thing is the rest of it is probably still floating around in there let me take a look at the gearbox breakdown and see if I can figure it out but I agree with above probably a thrust washer or spacer of some sort
     
  4. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
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    Wade O.
    David, are those pieces metallic, and were actually sticking to the magnet?
     
  5. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    Doesn't seem wide enough to be a thrust washer. Looks more like a seal ring or a "C" clip to me.
     
  6. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,570
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
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    Tim Dee
    I would be very concerned and take it apart
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,423
    socal
    My guess...seeger ring. looks by picture about 1" diameter. What about the ring at end of layshaft driver's side holds the spinner thing for speed sensor.
    11067276 page tav 30
     
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  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,969
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
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    Grant
    Im with Tim. If my car its comming apart to be fixed. Could be for nothing but you cannot chance it.
    Again-in my opinion
     
  9. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
    16
    Cambridge UK
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks for your fast replies guys.
    The parts are metallic and were sticking to the mag plug.
    I have dropped the lower cover plate and no apparant visible damage there. No side play on either shaft.
    My son Josh was interrogating the net and ended up at the Superformance website. Circlip part number 113087. (supersedes 22804) The section looks very similar as does the diameter.

    Item 22. here. It is called a gasket but I suspect that is the wrong description ?.
    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/348-group/348-1989-1992/lay-shaft-gears.html

    The power unit is coming out next weekend and I will remove side covers on the transmission.
    The funny thing is the speedo has always read approximately 33% lower. Maybe there is a problem at the sensor area??.
    I will dive in and report back.
    Cheers.
     
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  10. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
    2,759
    Malaysia - KL
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    Miroljub Stojanovic
    At the Eurospares website, it is also called "ring". There is a steel ball there (#30); make sure you find it if it has dropped out of the speedometer reluctor assembly.
     
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  11. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Good luck mate and keep us informed how it goes. Looks like at least you caught it at the right time of no damage and the part clearly missing! I guess it’s a reminder not to re-use certain pieces when it is all stripped down for the rebuild... just have to treble check everything!?!?


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  12. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    113087 looks like this (see below). It's hard to tell from your photos, but the profile of the shard looks somewhat tapered in your picture. Can you confirm?
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  13. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
    712
    Treasure Coast Florida
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    MATT
    My God this thread is giving me the eebeegeebies just thinking about what could be lurking around in my gearbox! I think I'm going to drain mine in a tupperware and examine it this week. My old 328 when I changed the gear fluid there was a gigantic bronze gear tooth that came out. I never knew where it came from but I drove the car for 10 years trouble free! But it was always on my mind every time I drove it!
     
  14. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 18, 2008
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    Grant
    Yup. Thats the problem
     
  15. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
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    Cambridge UK
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    David
    The cross section of the bits I found are square just like 113087. Do you have the dimensions of it to hand?.
     
  16. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    #18 Ricambi America, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  17. ghardt

    ghardt Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
    1,259
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    Jerry
    I'm gonna pretend I never read this thread.
     
  18. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
    16
    Cambridge UK
    Full Name:
    David
    Ok, I thought I had better update you all with my findings now the engine is out and transmission parted from engine over the weekend.
    I removed the left hand side housing from the transmission housing to investigate as the parts on the magnetic plug resembled a sealing ring similar to that on the Supeformance site. Well, I was surprised to see that one was in place on the end of the shaft. It lives in a groove where indicated by the red arrow on the picture. Picture was taken after I removed the sealing ring.
    I removed the sealing ring and measured it and it is identical in section and diameter. There is only one of these in the transmission, so the big question is how did they get there?.
    Looking at the amount of wear on the faces of the one I removed from the shaft and comparing it to the bits I found on the mag plug, I would say that the bits I found lurking on the mag plug have not seen any mileage / use. Who knows, maybe done at the factory or subsequent maintenance gone wrong????.
    I also noticed that the left hand side housing and intermediate plate have been removed in the past as there is white silicon sealant on the mating faces. This is not on the right hand housing joint. Maybe a previous oil change revealed pieces of the ring on the mag plug and the left side panel was removed then??.
    The transmission filter had a small amount of aluminium (which I suspect are the first 3 threads of the missing dipstick threads in the casing) a few flat magnetic bits 2x2mm big and some white / grey silicone sealant and non magnetic grey / black sludge deposits on the internal floor of the transmission housing.
    As far as I can see after removing the front intermediate panel between the transmission and engine, there does not appear to be any damage to any of the visible gear teeth. Next weekend I am going to flush out the transmission with petrol a few times and inspect with mirrors, magnets and remote micro tv camera. Hopefully I will find nothing.
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  19. allandwf

    allandwf Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2011
    267
    Scotland UK
    Fingers crossed for you. As you say maybe a relic from the past and held out of harms way by the magnetic plug.
     
  20. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
    16
    Cambridge UK
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    David
    Well, I dove into the gearbox a little further on Thursday evening and was gutted to find play on the clutch shaft. Axial play was 4-5 mm and in one position it had rotational play. Felt like a gear tooth missing. That clutch shaft was coming out Friday afternoon so Friday morning I made a puller to do the job. Once clamped on, heat was applied around the bearing housing and the unit came out. Wow was I lucky to catch this time bomb early or what. The ring nut had backed off, the gear had moved forward and ate the gearbox casing slightly which is the result of all the grey black mud / sludge and aluminium in the bottom of the gearbox. Gear removed to find the splines were fully intact with no apparent wear. There gear has a tiny burr on the forward edge of the teeth where it ate the casing. The mating gear on the drop shaft is also in great shape with no apparent damage. I am going to replace the clutch shaft bearing as the forward part of the inner race had move forward causing the axial play on the shaft so loading the bearing unnaturally. Today I have removed the right side cover and thoroughly cleaned the gearbox out with avgas. A further inspection of bearings and gears will be done next week but all looks good at the moment. Tomorrow I am turning my attention to the engine, pre cleaning first and removing belts, cam covers and checking valve clearances. I will try and post some pictures tomorrow. Just one thing, when rotating one diff flange is the other side supposed to move in the same direction or opposite direction?. It acts like a non LSD diff. Is this normal ?. Oh and mileage on this 1992 348 is 15K. vin 91710. Bye for now.
     
  21. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    Is it the ring nut #11 on the diagram that had backed off?

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  22. mondialdave

    mondialdave Rookie

    Sep 19, 2008
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    Cambridge UK
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    David
    yes, item 11
     
  23. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Well Dave, easy to say, but thank-G you got it now. How easy to have had someone service it and maybe miss it or dismiss it and as you say, timebomb.


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