In my previous threads I took steps towards troubleshooting my F1 system pressure problems: Replaced Accumulator Bulb Tightened F1 Actuator Bleed Screws Replaced F1 fluid using Launch X431 Diagnostic Tool Now finally with the X431 data logs I can show much more clearly how the problem manifests itself. Here are my preliminary graphs that detail the F1 system pressure problem. IDLE - IN NEUTRAL F1 pump actuates every 85 seconds F1 pump runs for 3-5 seconds per activation Pressure slowly tapers off Image Unavailable, Please Login 1ST GEAR ONLY (Driving continuously in circles, no shifting) F1 pump actuates every 10-12 seconds F1 pressure dissipates RAPIDLY! Image Unavailable, Please Login At this point, the next troubleshooting steps are not clear to me. Others in my previous thread have suggested that the E-Diff Solenoid should be considered next. However, I have no E-Diff warnings or other stored fault conditions. What would you look at next if you saw these graphs for your F1 system? All input is welcome.
Do you literally mean in circles ..cause the e-diff would kick in if you were doing tight circles Also ..what rpm were you at ..the clutch may have been feathering if below 100grab point Try graphing a normal drive .. let's look at that as well Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Good questions, Dominick. This is my personal 'test course' at my Country Club. Image Unavailable, Please Login This parking lot easily lets me stay at 3000 RPM in 1st gear with no braking. This is how and where the 1st gear data (shown above) was captured. Here is a graph showing more normal driving through a neighborhood mostly in 2nd gear. The saw-tooth effect persists. Image Unavailable, Please Login Any thoughts?
Hey Charles, First off excellent use and display of the launch live data...! My first question are you still experience any negative symptoms.? My observation of your graph is the system is maintaining control pressure with spot on activation around 500 bar ON and 650 Off... With very consistent pressure rises and decreases......... Still learning the system myself I would expect the pump to activate for the following: 1-gear engagement 2-T/O bearing movement needed to operate clutch 3-E diff activation 4-maintain required system pressure... 5-Your first data display shows no load just min/Max pressure needed.....Thus showing the longer intervals between pump activation.. K//
Additional question can you graph 6th gear....If that shows long periods of no pump activation it all may be normal but if you are experiencing symptom 1-4 do we have internal actuator leakage..? Again are you feeling issues gear request 1-4 and nothing for 5-6..? Interesting stuff...! K///
Alas! Kaspar is on to something very important! Here is my new data with 3rd through 5th gear. In these graphs I have included Gear Engaged, to show conclusively what gear I am testing in. 3RD GEAR Pressure loss is significantly less. Pump activation interval is 2 minutes. Contrasts rapid pressure loss in 2nd gear. Image Unavailable, Please Login 4TH GEAR Pressure held for over 2 minutes Image Unavailable, Please Login 5TH GEAR Pressure held for over 2 minutes again. Image Unavailable, Please Login 6th gear was exactly the same and held for over 2 minutes. Side Note: I lose pressure more quickly in Neutral then I do in 3rd - 6th gear. To eliminate any chance that Ediff is involved, I repeated 1st and 2nd gear testing going in a straight line. The sawtooth pressure reading in those two gears persists identically, no matter how I drive. I think I need some F1 actuator expert advice here. As Kaspar suggests, does the actuator have seals that hold pressure only for specific gears?
The WSM has a hydraulic circuit diagram and a table of the solenoid actuations for each gear. I’d use that to try to identify when the leak is occurring and isolate potential causes. Remember also that it could be a leak at the 3rd - 6th hydraulics and it stops because they are in use rather than closed.
Ok here is what I have so far: All of the following results are in neutral only: Pump on-41.6 bar consistent or 603.35 psi. Pump off-54.3 bar....consistent. Or 787.55 psi. Pressure stayed without pump restarting: 3:32/ 3:34 seconds consistently. Charles: There is a huge discrepancy in pressure readings: Is it possible you are overlooking a decimal point...? Your readings indicate excessive pressure.... No question there is leakage...lets not forget the solenoid valves these are the gateway before activation. PM heading your way. K//
Also have this issue and had the car in yesterday for replacement of accumulator bulb and diagnosing the system before and after the replacement of the bulb. My Scud Ing relay indicates that there is an error 7 which means the pump cycles more then it should sometimes. The replacement of the bulb did not make any improvements at all. My actuator is working well above normal, the E-DIFF valve is functioning as it should. There are no external leaks. Tech suspected there could be an issue with the clutch valve or that the pump is starting to degrade. Since everything is working as it should and there are no error codes in the car itself suggestion is that i continue driving and wait until something deteriorates. I talked to Scud Ing about this thread and got some info that the E-DIFF valve will be activated even in straight line. E-DIFF valve activation depends on speed and manettino setting. For instance, if you cruise at 50 km/h in straight line, the E-DIFF solenoid will be activated very often. Cruise at 80 km/h and it won't activate at all.
Thanks again, Kaspar. When you look at those graphs above on the Y axis, you can see the Launch labels the pressure in bar. I now know that Launch incorrectly uses bar units when it should be using psi. I know this, because I had a 20 minute conversation with Serkan, the master F1 system rebuilder in Florida, after he looked at this data. Here is a quick summary of my conversation with this interesting man: Rule #1: SERKAN DOES NOT DIAGNOSE OVER THE PHONE Rule #2: SERKAN DOES NOT DIAGNOSE OVER THE PHONE Rule #3..... No need to say it again. Serkan is extremely cautious about giving advice without doing hands-on diagnostic. Good man! English is Serkan's 4th language, so listen carefully! Serkan was only willing to call me back and talk with me over the phone about my issue, because he had NEVER seen F1 diagrams that look like this. First things he asked me were: "Who are you, that make diagrams that look like this?" "I am impressed, even an idiot could understand them. No offense." "What tool are you using to make this data?" Serkan had not heard of Launch X431 before. He told me my pressure readings are in psi not bar. If they were really bar, my F1 system would have already exploded. This makes me wonder what other Units the X431 has wrong. Even after seeing my conclusive pressure loss in 1st and 2nd gear, Serkan was not entirely convinced that it was actuator leakage. He asked me to send a range of additional data, particularly on the Electrovalves. He let me know that all my F1 system testing can be done, and is normally done, without actually driving the car. He asked that I send him this data with the car at idle, preferably after running for 5 minutes. That is where I stand so far. I still need to do more data logging.
That awesome ... Great that you are getting this level of help ..let us know what happens Can you share the data you are sending ? Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Charles, Interesting..my Launch data also shows it in bar but with a decimal point...I know we have the options in settings to switch over to PSI... I'm glad to hear we have a expert looking into this for you..! Looking forward to learning as much as we can... Keep us all updated with your findings. K//
First keep in mind that the actuator receives no pressure except during the actual shift. Driving along in a specific gear there is no pressure on any lines until you request a shift. The detents in the gearbox shift forks hold the gear until the next requested shift. Also note that the Ediff strategy is very specific to throttle, RPM and Torque request. You can have ediff requested in second gear at a given speed but not in higher gears at the same speed completely dependent on the torque request of the Motronic unit managed by the ABS unit. There is a very specific Ferrari bulletin for the exact symptom you have and it will be a leaking Ediff valve 90% of the time. You need to drive very straight at 20-25 mph very steady speed and very steady throttle with no steering. F1 pump on time with a greater then 15% duty cycle indicates a leaking ediff valve. Occasionally you can clean the valve by cycling it very quickly manually, one of the old OTC fuel injector tester boxes works well for this, otherwise the valve will need replacement, bleeding and bedding in. another area that can cause issues is if the steering angle sensor is not calibrated correctly. If it is showing steering wheel input while in the straight ahead position it will cause excessive ediff on time. the test route you are showing in the parking lot cannot be used for evaluating pump on time, Steering wheel input and throttle input causes ediff operation..
Windsock, For the sake of clarity, I want to be sure that this is the part you are talking about: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Do you have any links you can share to the bulletin you mention or any other troubleshooting threads that address the diagnosis of a leaking Ediff valve? Many thanks.
It is unfortunate that the x431 doe not have ediff support ... At I do not see anything on 10.26 Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
This is an excellent thread ..I would love to see more of these dyi threads diagosing problems Given the electronics of these cars...one only need a good diag tool and a good decision table flow chart ... Is IT and engineers love that ..boo dirty hands but positive results Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Thanks Kaspar, I will go through my unit settings and see if I can replicate the bar unit's decimal values you see. That will make comparison and collaboration much easier.
I now know why some people see BAR units with a decimal point. It matters which TCU option is selected with Launch. Image Unavailable, Please Login CFC231 data stream looks correctly formatted. Image Unavailable, Please Login Within the CFC231 TCU module I also found the 'Ediff System Leak' parameter. Image Unavailable, Please Login I tested 1st gear following Serkan's advice. Test F1 system at idle No driving this time This graph shows: Ediff System Leak data stream, for whatever that is worth. Pressure loss is very rapid in 1st Gear Neutral lost pressure just as quickly Image Unavailable, Please Login For further, and much more professional diagnostic, I will be sending Serkan all the parameters he asked to see. I will post that here as well, as soon as I have it logged. I am looking for an explanation of the 'Ediff System Leak' parameter and its typical numeric range. Any insight on that would be much appreciated.