Come on F12 owners we must keep this pol going it is important for a whole host of reasons. If non F12 Ferrari owners know F12 owners please get them to register their vote on this pole. Many thanks!
I have a 2016 F12 delivered in Oct. 2015. No bubbling.......yet? I also have a check ready, Hum... maybe for a new Super Series~[emoji848] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
As requested, none of the following F12's have any signs of bubbling or corrosion, please add them to the list: 1. 04881 2. 19427 3. 25250 4. 09147 5. 29259 6. 24986 7. 09813
If / When you get " thousands " of F12 owners to confirm , that will be the day to discuss the doom and gloom that you are spreading. So far, a micro-percentage of cars has proven to be effected.... and of those Ferrari seems to be taking care of them. Not sure what more exactly you expect to be done about it. S
You say above that " half the F12's are affected " to confirm, you mean half of those that have answered , which is why I wanted to offer an honest counter balance to this informal poll. In an attempt to be transparent and provide factual details, I will continue to add data ( in the form of the last 5 of the VIN ) of each F12 I personally inspect for this anomaly. As I am the Service Director for a Ferrari Dealership, I have the opportunity to see a larger pool of F12's in a month than most owners would themselves. I am not saying that there is not a concern, there is, but I am also saying that your online approach comes across significantly more negative than reality. IMO S
I understand what you are saying, but you don't expect these issues in a modern car. Statistically a small sample size is used to extrapolate the wider results (common in all polls taken) and so far I would say the poll is not encouraging. All we want is for Ferrari to say there is a problem and this is how we propose to fix it. I can't see that is too much to ask. I know you are a Service Director but remember we are personally involved in this.
Ferrari could care less. The F12 is old news. The customers they care about already bought 812’s. Ferrari isn’t going to say or do anything. They will fix cars under warranty. After that you’re on your own with expensive repair bills and loss of value. What threads like this will do is give someone who sues Ferrari in the future evidence that there was a manufacturing problem and that many cars were affected by this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I hope you are wrong as I'm sure about 4,999 others are too. Its very cynical saying they don't care and won't do anything. Many F12 owners are loyal and will be ready to purchase another new Ferrari as mine has exceeded expectations in every aspect. I passed on the 812 as many others did because I don't just buy the next new one. I have been looking for something really special (will keep the F12) and if its to have a cavallino on it I sure don't want to worry about repainting it. Maybe you are right and it's just quick money and toss you out but the folks I deal with at Ferrari are decent people and they do have passion for the brand and respect for the owners. I think Ferrari can fix this and make out from folks like me that will buy the one after the 812 but won't if they show that you are right. We will see.
A "micro-percentage," are you kidding? Need "thousands" to respond? Huh? It is known to be a problem, and Ferrari released a bulletin on how to properly repair because of the frequency of the issue. As a Service Manager you have seen that bulletin. I personally have seen about 5 cars including my own, and the service people I know corroborate. I don't know how many owners of F12s frequent this FChat section (maybe 50-100?), or would be willing to reply, but 30 have and it is near 50% affected...that says something. There is no reason for an F12 owner without the problem to avoid an easy click of the "I haven't seen it" anonymously, and therefore I suspect the percentage is likely giving us an indication of a real manufacturing issue. Even if it ends up being ~20% it is hardly a "micro-percentage." My guess is you are concerned FNA is reading this and they know who you are....keep towing the line.
Your points are taken and I empathize with the overall situation. How small a sample though? And I mean this non-confrontationally , do we need 100 or is 30 enough to damn the who F12 product line to corrosion failure? I feel that Ferrari has acknowledged there are anomalies in a small fraction of the F12's produced and are taking care of those repairs under warranty as expected. At the same time , I do not know that we have been able to take a close enough look into what the actual cause is yet. I feel this is because up until now, it hasn't mattered as much at the repair level, a failure is found , repaired, and all is well . Now that is seems to be happening more often, as noted by this poll, I for one AM looking to see what they all have in common. Unfortunately I cannot closely inspect them all in person. The two that I have seen, did not appear to be the same cause, though they did appear to have the same result. And like you, I am personally involved as well, I am trying to offer factual counter points for the discussion as well. If the group would prefer I kept my comments and experiences to myself, so that all input comes only from those that are having the problem, and therefore appears much worse that it may actually be , I can. Thank you for your constructive dialogue S
I think you are being harsh, but that is only my opinion, that Ferrari does not care. Ferrari has built its reputation good/bad , but never by knowingly and purposely putting out a product that corrodes to dust.... And if it's going to corrode , it seems to be happening during the first 3 years of the F12's life , to which Ferrari cares enough to honor their warranty and fixes it in a timely manner. Are you stating that you think Ferrari ( and all other car manufactures ) should warrant their cars for life? It's what it sounds like. As for " future evidence " hmmm Ok..... I can hear it now " My car has a failure 18 years out of warranty... but there were these few guys on the internet who voted anonymously on a poll ... " Guilty ! S
I don't know, 30 replies out of 5000 = .6% = micro The thousands comment came from MatNZ , I was confirming / validating HIS statement. I am confused , Ferrari is accused of not acknowledging the concern, yet you are telling me to go check a bulletin that acknowledges the concern... can't have it both ways... Please, PM me your " service peoples " contact info, I will absolutely 100% contact them and discuss our independent findings, and see if between our 7 examples ( my 2 + your 5 ) if there are any similarities ( grill rubbing or pitting in the underlying surfaces , etc ) then I can share it openly on this thread. To your point about the anonymous poll ... as you pointed out, let me offer a counter point, what keeps someone who does NOT own a F12 from placing their vote either way? I offered actual chassis #'s to support my personal inspection for this concern. How about you? Will you post the same information on the 5 examples you have? You don't have to, I'm just curious. I am confident that FNA has seen this thread, because I linked them to it, I wanted them to know about a concern the members of FC have. Which is also why I want to make sure that ANY reader of this thread has fair and balanced input. S
I am puzzled by your responses, you seem to be actively not trying to understand my point. I have said nothing about Ferrari acknowledging a problem, nothing. I speak for myself and no one else, so address your concerns to him (MatNZ). There aren't 5000 F12 owners on V12 section of FerrariChat, if you don't acknowledge that then nothing further needs to be said and we're done. As I guesstimated there are probably 50-100 owners who might actively frequent this site and be bothered to respond at all. 30 responses therefore likely represents roughly a 50% sample size. Of course non-owners can screw with a public poll like this, but then again I can't answer multiple times for the ones I have seen so I suspect they balance out. There is a snowballs chance in hell I would send you names of anyone, so setting up your "paper tiger" argument implying lack of names signifying lack of truth is dead on arrival. I suppose as I wander around the dealership in the future I will take pictures of every F12 I come across so that I can store up a numerator and denominator of photos... An official bulletin sent to dealers globally implies company knowledge of a problem affecting many cars so that they can be addressed properly. They were confronted with a problem, they analyzed it, they came up with a factory-recommended solution so that ALL repairs have to be done exactly that way (type of tools used, barriers, etc.)....all that would not be prompted by a "micro-fraction" problem. The issue being raised and my concern is going forward..out of warranty...will Ferrari stand by their car if it corrodes again? So far I have been told "no."
Good to have debate. The 5,000 is worldwide F12s sold so the numbers visiting FChat will be small. I would like to see the Service bulletin so will contact my dealer. If there is a chance of preventative maintenance then we should know about it SAFE4NOW - can you put this online if you truly care about the customers. Also if it has been repaired how do we know it won't come back again - in other words we kneed to know the root cause to address properly. I have personally seen 7 out of 12 F12s in NZ (58% hardly small percentages!!) with the corrosion issues needing an extensive repaint on both rear ends of the car.
Thank you for your reply and please accept my apology that I am NOT trying to minimize your point(s) I think that the format of our exchanges may be making it more difficult. I agree , there are not 5000 F12 owners on FC , I was responding to a point I felt that you thought I made, that had actually been made by another member, then when I replied, the original reference was lost. Really a mute point, as you and I are in agreement on this point. I will continue to list the examples I come across and their actual condition. It will help us all understand the pool of F12's affected or not. Which is a positive thing in my opinion. Would you consider asking one of your service contacts for the technical bulletin that they are referencing and maybe even provide it to you for reference? That way they are kept out of the discussion and not have any accountability. I can 100% tell you that I am not aware of any publication that flat out says this is what is causing F12 paint bubbling so do this to fix it. I do know of a time guide for performing paint repairs was released, outlining how to bill for paint repairs in general , but it does not indicate paint work for a particular concern. Am I out of the loop, I don't think so , but I am human and could have missed it somewhere. I for one AM looking at every F12 I come across, as I have a genuine interest in getting as many examples documented and hopefully with the help of the forum deduce the root cause. Maybe since I am in Texas, the cause is not as prevalent as it is in NZ or other climates. I do not have the answer for this. As for out of warranty coverage , I think you are correct, as of now, the answer is no. Paint defects while under the 3 year unlimited mileage warranty would be covered , those that occur outside of the warranty would not be.*** Do we have examples of F12's that the problem was not prevalent until after the warranty expired?
I feel than once we isolate the actual cause , we can come up with a solution to prevent it from happening moving forward ( and/or after repair ) I do care, and I know these are just words on the internet , but I will attempt to bridge the gap and prove through my actions that I can be of assistance. And, if I cannot, I will straight out tell you. Have any of the F12's in NZ been repaired yet? Are they accessible that you might take some close up photos of the affected areas? Maybe the body shops doing the repairs would be willing to take some photos while the car is apart , being repaired, that would show the metal and its condition under the bubbling paint. All of the above will dictate if it would / could come back again... TBD S
Thanks Steve your comments are helpful! NZ has a good climate (not too much rain - as I suspect this is one of the major reasons for the corrosion occurring (and perhaps the mesh through vibrations rubbing against the paint finish). Several of the F12s have been repaired and another 3 I know of will be done soon. Five of the F12s are imports from Hong Kong (3 in a private air conditioned collection, brand new never been driven - and 2 of the 3 which I have seen have the paint bubbling around the mesh - so that kind of blows away water being the issue??). Photos are shown in the F12 Paint Bubbling thread on this site. I think then Italiafan maybe able to help us with the Technical Service bulletin number. Thanks and any further information you can give us would be appreciated.
When they charge $20,000-$40,000 for a paint job it better darn well last longer than the 3 year warranty period. My interior pieces on my $400,000 car are becoming sticky. This is a problem since before the year 2000. If they cared they would have addressed the issue. I could go on and on. These are low production cars with limited period runs and a line out the door for people to buy them. They have no need to care. The F12 is old news to them. There will never be a recall or a fix or even an acknowledgement of a problem regardless of how many cars are affected. Anyways I don’t really get into debates online. Hopefully your f12 isn’t affected especially after the warranty period. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
