Haggerty Valuations- Do you find them accurate?

It'***** and miss, like all value guides. Accurate for some cars, not as much for others.

 

I find Hagerty to be a total joke and typically way off base.

 

I feel that the prices are too low against actual asking prices. It's useless saying a car costs X in the various condition scales and then owners never let go for less than X + 50%.

 

The Ask doesn't really matter. It's the final selling price that sets value.

 

For the TR they are pretty accurate .
Most cars sell between 85-100k
The problem is more the owners thinking their cars are worth way more than they are and not being aware of the true condition/value of their vehicles...at least on the tr side.


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Asking prices for the most part are meaningless. Actual sale prices are what counts, but that too can be misleading especially when it comes to high profile auctions. Is the value of car the price the buyer paid, hammer price plus the standard 10% auction buyer’s fee or is it the price the seller puts in his pocket, hammer price minus the 10% seller’s fee?

Probably the best way to view it is wholesale and retail. The amount the seller puts in his pocket is truly the car’s ACV.

 

Hagarty only compiles the prices... the hammer price plus commission ( total money exchanged ) as is reported by the various auction houses... the fudge factor is the condition of how the car is rated vs how they slot the sale... The difficulty is the small amount of sales as in Ferrari, where only one or two cars may trade in the course of a year for the early cars. New car production is approaching 10.000 units which would make the newer car values more reliable. Private sales probably are not used, since certified verification may not be possible

 

This is incorrect. In addition to auction results, Hagerty uses actual insured valuations from policy holders when they add or remove a vehicle from coverage. They have a huge presence in the industry, often the seller and buyer are both Hagerty customers and they consider the insured valuation by the new owner.

 

Personally, I think that the Hagerty values are surprisingly accurate. Particularly for vintage Ferraris.

Matt

 

I think you’re absolutely right.

Matt

 

From the "non-vintage Ferrari" perspective, I think that is probably true.

Hagerty presumably has a lot more data points for, say, the 308, yet many in the 308 crowd complain that Hagerty prices are higher than reality. I don't agree. I read the Hagerty price curves for 308s as showing exactly what you say; 308 owners overestimate the condition of their cars. According to Hagerty, "driver" 308s (Category #4) have not appreciated much in value (now $40k-ish) since the price run-up starting in 2013 but true Hagerty Category #1 308s are now well above $100k. Prior to 2013, all conditions of 308s were about the same price.

As for the "vintage" cars which this thread is really discussing, I don't see how Hagerty could have enough data to really provide meaningful estimates of value. Model, providence, race history etc. play too big a factor for them to really provide "accurate" price curves. They are probably using Agreed Value insurance numbers. And hardly any vintage cars are used regularly anymore. Is there such thing as a "driver" condition Daytona anymore?

 

The prices in SportsCar Market based on Auction Sales are probably more accurate for cars in better condition. Keep in mind the ever increasing price of rebuilding engines etc. and restoration.

 

+1. If you read the descriptions of what constitutes what rating, you quickly realize that most cars one sees in real life (outside of the winners circle at Pebble or Villa D'este) are probably condition 4. A lot of so called garage queens are really condition 3 cars. The really cherry cars, the all original or beautifully restored ones where the owner carries a towel to wipe off his own finger prints after he opens the door...most of those are somewhere between condition 3 and 2.

I think a lot of people think that just because they don't use their car as a daily driver, that means it not "daily driver condition", but if you read the descriptions from Hagerty below, #4 describes 80% of the classic cars on the road. The small minority we describe as amazing condition are usually #3's, in my opinion.

I think the biggest misconception is that all cars fit somewhere in this rating system, and they clearly don't. Many wouldn't even make the cut for number 4.

Condition #1 vehicles are the best in the world. The visual image is of the best vehicle, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the vehicle has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted. The one word description for #1 vehicles is "concours."

#2 vehicles could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 vehicles that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and finishes will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would. The one word description for #2 vehicles is "excellent."

#3 vehicles could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 vehicle, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior where applicable. #3 vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 vehicle.

#4 vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present. A #4 vehicle can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 vehicle.

 

I apologize, but I have to disagree.

The Hagerty values are accurate for even relatively small production 250 runs. I was recently looking at their 250 Ellena numbers and nodding in agreement. If any given car model really has too few comparables, it won’t be listed. You won’t see, say, a 375 MM listed.

And Daytonas were built in (for Ferrari at the time) huge and unprecedented quantities: over 1400. For my beloved 330 Series 2, a thousand fewer were made. Fewer still survive. The Hagerty prices are spot on, as far as I’m concerned, and I watch quite closely.

And there are survivors of both models in all ranges of condition. Yes, there are definitely Condition 4 Daytonas out there.

Matt

 

+1 Spot on. I know of three Condition 4 Daytonas in my neck of the woods.

 

I enjoy reading SportsCar Market but IMO the price guide is virtually worthless.

 

+1 all around. And regarding Daytona's, most I've seen are a 3 or a 4.

A Condition 4 is not a car in bad condition, it's a car that's used or shows signs of having been used in the past.