Why wouldn't Ferrari use a carbon fiber tub for their cars?

F50 and Enzo also had carbon fiber tub.

 

Maybe this is one of the reasons why???

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I don't think that's why.

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

OMG! I don't think anyone walked out of those wrecks besides maybe the Enzo

 

It’s just for investment, cost and reparations mclaren produced 3000 car/year Ferrari 9000 car/year

 

I read this once, but I don't know how true. That Carbon fiber maybe deteriorate over time compared to metal? They use it in aircraft so probably not true? Anyone think a carbon fiber aircraft would last as long as DC-3?

 

I seem to recall a big story from 5-6 years ago where they invested a significant amount of money into an aluminum business to help with their chassis development. Probably should have invested in a composites business, but once the money is spent you go with what ya got.

Quick search came up with: https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a7234/is-aluminum-not-carbon-fiber-the-car-material-of-the-future-ferrari-says-yes/

 

That's certainly not true. If you look at any of the military aircraft that have been using composites for decades all of the corrosion and deterioration issues are on the metal parts. The composite parts have far fewer issues.

While composites are great for large flat parts (like airplane skins) they don't make less and less sense as the parts get smaller and more 3-dimensional. The weight savings that would come from a CF tub are probably just not large enough compared with modern aluminum alloys to make it worth the headaches and cost for design and manufacturing. I suspect it is more of a marketing decision by the likes of Mclaren to use a CF tub rather than a true engineering decision.

 

So what is the cost difference over carbon fiber versus aluminum or steel?

 

I think they don't do it because of cost.

No direct experience but I've seen many reviews of newer convertible Ferrari with mention of noticeable cowl shake. Just as many mentioning the absence of such in the McLaren.

 

The right material for the right type of car I suppose. The widening of the GT segment should give more as enough possibilities for aluminium application. Implementing major parts of carbon fibre in the bigger GT cars certainly is not the way to go. The current mid-engine platform has been around since 2009. Development on it has started well before. Amortization should be done now, so we might see a different approach in future. Also consider that investments in aluminium and alloy technologies does not forbid to use multi material layouts as Ferrari already stressed in latest presentation. Different materials for different cars are the right approach IMO.

 

Alfa uses it on the 4c .. but i wonder about the fatigue factor in regular cars where as metal can flex a little ....would a carbon fiber tub hold up 20 years and 100 k miles ? And if it cost more ?

 

Which are arguably Hyper Cars.

 

The first warbird made with a CF structure (F117) was retired after less than a decade in service, compared to 30+ years for F15/F14.
But these crafts are flown at the structural limits of the airframe and wings (more like race cars which are retired every season.)
CF passenger airplanes go no where near their structural limits (20% maybe) so the CF will last a long time.

CF is a lot like a white metal, if you use it at low enough structural forces it will last a very long time, but it will eventually fail.
And unlike steel and aluminum you can't put Humpty back together again.

 

Yes of course they are hyper cars, but the OP Dilusha edited his post after I responded. See the post I responded to in post 2 of this thread.

 

The F117 was not retired due to structural life limits on its airframe. It was also not the first to have structural composite parts. Many military aircraft designed in the late 70s used composites in varying degrees. The F-16 has carbon (graphite actually) fiber skins on its horizontal and vertical stabilizer. The F-15 has a boron fiber vertical stab. The F-18 uses composites for about 10% of its structure. Those aircraft are pushing 40 years old now.

This is not true. Carbon fiber (and steel too actually) have an infinite fatigue life and low loads. The carbon fibers themselves actually have an infinite fatigue life at a load level very close to their ultimate load capability. Unfortunately the epoxy that makes up the matrix does not, and this is what eventually fails.

Repair on composites is actually frequently substantially easier than on metals as well. A properly performed hot bond repair has similar structural capabilities to the factory material. However automotive shops don't have that capability yet. Many of the high strength aluminum alloys cannot be welded.

 

This is the real reason. End of discussion.

 

I watched a video on youtube recently of a Lambo having a factory repair to its composite tub, very basic process, pretty much an epoxy based sticking plaster.

14 mins in

 

My BFF, who is brilliant with this stuff, says that CF can be as rigid or as flexible as you want, depending on the kind of resin you put the weave in. Anything from bow arms to tubs.

I play CF classical guitars, and the back/side bowl is very rigid, but the top is not, so that it resonates well.

Image Unavailable, Please Login
One is a classical, the other a flamenco (The only difference is action height).

 

I think cost is the main issue. I have 2 cars with CF tubs ( 2017 Alfa Romeo 4C coupe and 2018 Lamborghini Aventador S coupe).Both feel more rigid than my F12 coupe, but after visiting the Lamborghini factory and seeing the CF monocoque production process in person, I can see why it is apparently so expensive. The production process is incredibly labor intensive. I was told at Maserati in Modena ( where the 4C final assembly tales place) that the CF tub on the 4C was originally designed by Dallara and produced by the Adler Group. The CF tub alone supposedly costs close to $50,000.

Another interesting fact about Lamborghini is that all Aventadors are hand painted/sprayed, while the Huracans are robotic sprayed like most Ferraris. Ferrari is charging my $63,000 on my hand sprayed paint job on my Tailor Made 812 Superfast. The Aventador looks like a bargain in many ways!!

 

Ferrari currently has more customers than cars.
If a few millionaires die in accidents that a CF tub could have prevented...well thats a risk they are willing to take.
But potentially giving up a few bucks in pure profit. Now thats a different matter.

A 60K Alfa 4C has a Carbon tub and a half million TDF does not.

Laughable.

 

Here is a video of George trying to smash his CF guitar (he's the guy in the red shag boots).