Vintage Multi-piece Racing Wheel Rebuilding | FerrariChat

Vintage Multi-piece Racing Wheel Rebuilding

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by lashss, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

    Nov 26, 2003
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    I have a set of early 80s Ronal Racing wheels that need to be rebuilt.

    What is the proper torque for the twenty bolts around the perimeter?

    They are an M6x40mm 8.8 bolt with nylock nuts and I plan on using a blue thread locker also.

    Ronal themselves told me they don’t know what the correct figure is anymore.

    Here is the a clip of the wheel-



    Thanks!
     
  2. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    I would look up the torque specs on that size and grade of bolt and go with that.
    When I was on a Super Vee crew in the 80s the BBS rep would come around and torque are wheels with an inch pound torque wrench.
     
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  3. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    The standard torque for a 6mm bolt with 8.8 strength is 9nm. If you are using new nylock nuts, then you don't need to use loctite as well. If reusing old nylocks, which is kind of a no-no, then the blue loctite will work find. The main thing is getting the wheels to seal. On BBS racing wheels, we used to apply a nice bead of RTV silicone sealant all the way around the rim to rim joint on the inside of the wheel once the wheel was assembled. Clean everything once disassembled and check for cracks before reassembly and you should be good to go.
     
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  4. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    9 nm converts to 79.xx in lbs.

    A reputable shop rebuilt these last fall to 84 in lbs. While driving on a smooth road with 45psi cold, 7 bolts failed and the wheel lost all air pressure.

    Could an extra 5 in lbs cause a failure like this?

    My other resources are mixed on this...
     
  5. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Inferior bolts? Counterfeit Chinese maybe ?
     
  6. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    I hope not...purchased directly from Fastenal.
     
  7. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    No, the extra 5 in lbs of torque would not cause the bolts to fail. I would say that the bolts were the cause of the failure. I would recommend using a stronger bolt/nut combination of the correct length from a reputable manufacturer (such as ARP) either 10.9 or 12.9 with matching nuts. Wheel failure is something that should be taken very seriously. You should consult someone that is knowledgeable in this area to determine what caused the failure of the old bolts and what should be done to fix the cause. What was the strength of the original bolts? Were the replacement bolts identical to the originals, as the length of the bolt shank is very important. You don't want the threaded portion of the bolt to be in shear.
    As Ronal is still in business, you could contact them for information on the bolt specifications. I would also look at BBS racing wheels to see what grade of bolt that they use and to see if the shank of the bolt goes all the way through the wheel, with the thread just starting at the washer on the inside of the wheel.
     
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  8. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Great points.

    I will try to ask Ronal again even though they didn’t have much info before.

    Is 10.9 or 12.9 a typical grade for wheel hardware?

    The shop that originally rebuilt them said 8.8 was ideal according to their wheel specialist.

    Thanks
     
  9. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Doesn't sound like it was ideal if 7 bolts broke during normal use. I would call that a major failure. It could have killed someone.
     
  10. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    So, I have concluded my data gathering consisting of the respected local race shop, BBS USA’s senior wheel builder, Ronal’s tech support, two west coast vintage race prep outfits and three other oldtimer crew chiefs from the Sommets des Legendes at Tremblant this past weekend.

    Consensus is to use a Class 12.9 for all wheel building although Class 10.9 is also ok for lighter duty use.

    Torque spec is 155 in lb and BBS doesn’t recommend thread locker or nylock nuts.

    Time to source some new hardware, check for metal damage, clean surfaces, replace hardware, reseal halves with sealant and then test.

    Any recommendations besides ARP for bolts? I need a Socket Head (SHCS) to fit my recessed mounting holes and they only sell collared 12 point. They may work but I need to measure my centers.

    ARP is $11 per bolt/nut combo.

    Any reason to not use an identical spec piece from Fastenal at $2/combo?

    Thanks
     
  11. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Somehow I don't trust Fastenal. Who makes their fasteners? Where are they made and tested? I am sure that there are some sellers of high-quality fasteners out there that don't cost as much as ARP, but I don't know who they are. You are going to have to do some more research.
    You want to do this repair one time and not ever have to worry about it again, don't skimp on cheap hardware.
     
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  12. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Have you or anyone else had bad experiences with Fastenal?
     
  13. itsablurr

    itsablurr Formula 3

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    Grade 12.9, bolts are considered 1 time use.
     
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  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Yes, easily. Many times, bolts are torqued right up to but not quit into the yield region. If/when over tightened, they enter the yield region and neither hold torque nor stay together.
     
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  15. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Who mounted the tires....?
    When Luther at the local tire shop treats modular wheels as if they are regular steel transport wheels or they specialize in truck tires and bead them with 150 psi, bad things can happen. I don't know if it is the case here, but it is a source of high stress on the rims.....
     
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  16. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for all of the replies.

    The tires were all mounted correctly at a race shop. Luckily, Luther was off that day!

    I cannot find a reason to avoid Fastenal. They do supply aviation and Mil Spec projects currently as well as achieving many industry standard ratings.
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 BigTex, Jul 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
    A dear friend's son is a Manager for Fastenal and I have used them confidently in commercial construction projects.

    There is always a possibility of mistake in supply procurement and labeling, (and of course outright fraud!!) but, as you state, "a specification" is just that.
    I read the whole thread and some excellent points set forth here.

    It sounds like excessive torque may have been your issue, on the first installation.
    It takes some sympathy for the metal........"too much" is never the same as "just right'.

    Point well made on the shoulder length versus the thread cut zone, too.

    Interesting point about Nylocks too.
    Good luck and be sure to report back, full circle!

    I run some vintage three piece rims.
    One of them curb rashed in a Med Center garage, and I just "wear the damage" rather than think about breaking the factory sealing and bolts!!!
    There must be 32 or more, around the rim...
     
  18. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Be glad to PM his name if you would like his personal attention to your order.

    His Branch is on the side of town to serve our petro-chemical refining industry.
    Should not be necessary though.

    This type of order they will assume your application is critical!!
     
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  19. lashss

    lashss F1 Rookie

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    Thank you for all the thoughtful replies on this subject.

    After diving into this project, I have completed the wheel rebuilds under the watchful eye of an expert vintage motorsports outfit.

    While grade 10.9 hardware is acceptable, I opted for 12.9 and grade 10 flanged nuts.

    We used Permatex Black RTV and a good in/lb torque wrench to reach the proper spec.

    The 12.9 hardware is a big jump in strength over the previously incorrect 8.8 pieces.

    Initial testing has been good...

    A fun fact - these 15x13 Magnesium Ronals weigh 15.8lbs!

    LSJ
     

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