488 Pista - qualifying demands | Page 36 | FerrariChat

488 Pista - qualifying demands

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Doctor Mark, Oct 18, 2018.

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  1. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 World Champ
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    Feb 26, 2008
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    YEAH AND IF YOU ORDER YOUR MCLAREN NOW THEY WILL EVEN INCLUDE THE PAPER BAG YOU CAN WEAR OVER YOUR HEAD SO PEOPLE WONT SEE YOU DRIVING THAT BUTT UGLY THING!!!
     
  2. iloveferrari

    iloveferrari Formula 3
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    Huh? Where is this coming?
     
  3. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    Its faster. No question. That one is fastest.

    Criminal thread drift. Felony class 1 in the chat board regs.
     
  4. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    What the....???
     
  5. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    but we are talking about Ferrari here not other manufacturers. I thought Ferrari was intensely interested in who their customers are and what they are doing in the World of Ferrari. The factory rated every customer with a score based on which cars they owned and what Ferrari sanctioned events they participated in. More points if you took the Ferrari driving school and then maybe bought a Challenge car also. Moving on up was what Ferrari wanted and they rated all their customers accordingly. Ferrari has made millions creating race cars for customers and also by understanding their customers and what they want. I don't think you are giving Ferrari enough credit for how they relate to their customers.
    Ferrari also has a long memory when it comes to the antics of some individuals over the years to...
     
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  6. iloveferrari

    iloveferrari Formula 3
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    Maybe things began to change since Ferrari went public.
     
  7. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
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    #882 boobernackle, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    Manufacturers issue allocations to dealers, NOT customers. A dealer gets an allocation for car X, then sells it to a customer. Hence the "points" system you refer to doesn't mean much for cars where a dealer selects who to sell to. Manufacturers have way too many customers to comb through their entire database, it's simply not scaled that way and not easy to keep a record of every deal jacket for years, with plenty of offsite storage, this is required by law for every new car dealer.

    The only time the points would ever come up would be for a car that is extremely limited (LaF), whereby your dealer will supply Ferrari with your name and include that as part of your "portfolio", for example, Client A has bought X cars, been to the factory, races, etc., which is what Ford did with their latest GT. On a Pista, 488, Port, etc, that doesn't happen.

    Will agree that Ferrari certainly has managed exceptionally well how to handle themselves, but that doesn't mean there aren't any dealers that take things for granted. Not only does the IPO make them very much similar to other brands, the fact they aren't winning in Formula 1 also takes away some of the luster, although Max Verstappen may have a lot to do with it.

     
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  8. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    This is inconsistent with it always being reported that the dealership cannot sell a new Ferrari above sticker. The counter argument was always if you just raise the price to the market rate then no wait list and first come first serve at the highest market pricing. Were you speaking about used cars only and not cash deals on new cars?
     
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  9. SB27

    SB27 Karting

    Dec 2, 2015
    125
    I think this is correct. I was at the factory a few months ago and even very early in the Pista's availability you could see the sheer number of pista's being produced in relation to standard 488's. It is a matter of time. Even the factory tour rep said "wow, look at the number of pista's rolling off the line today. This has been happening for the past several weeks".

    Another thing that will "help" advance availability will be the continued (as of this typing) downturn in the stock markets. A vast majority of F-car buyers can do so because of equity sold in their private businesses which was then transferred to buying public equities as investments. The market is down about 15% (again, as of this writing) and that means "perceived" wealth is also down. This in turn impacts discretionary spending on things like expensive sports cars.

    "All bean stalks don't grow to the skies".

    As the economy softens and demand slackens even a little bit, let's see how "available" all of their cars become. For any of you that have run publicly traded companies, the phrase "we have to grow sales" might be familiar. No sales growth? No growth in revenue per unit sold? No increase in your stock multiple and perhaps no performance based bonus this year.

    We will see. Ferrari has yet to be a public company in a downturn/recession. Let's see what happens then.
     
  10. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
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  11. Carper

    Carper Karting

    Aug 13, 2017
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    Remembering how we all hyped ourselves up on here in the run up to the launch of the Pista (back when we didn't know the name) we only have ourselves to blame for a lot of this nonsense.

    Let's perhaps all agree to not even mention the next best thing from Ferrari until 3 months after launch lol
     
  12. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
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    It all depends on what the dealer cherishes. Very easy to sell a car above MSRP, just use a mule... those cars with "owners" that never took possession of the car, then tack on a lame excuse as to why it never left the showroom. There are various entities used, many of them you can find on eBay and other sites, that open the trunks as far as selling above MSRP goes.

    With Ferrari, dealers are trying to do both ends, make additional profit while also sell more cars, hence the Lusso/Portofino tactic.

    Regarding the economy, your typical Fcar buyer isn't concerned with monthly fluctuations. Unemployment is still low, except for rising interest rates that would hurt.

    With Pista production, it's absolutely no surprise to see a majority of them on the assembly line. Not a limited production car and just give it time for dealers to work through, heck they just got deliveries in NA a month ago.
     
  13. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Yes, aware of the various methods including donate to the race team, etc. But pretty sure on a straight up cash deal the sticker is it including some mandatory options. Not like other cars where it's a starting point and each are basically auctioned above sticker. Better do that then have to take possession of a car you don't want, wait and then sell at a loss until the car you want comes in. If in the end its just pay me 'X" over sticker then you could decide what you want to pay and be done with it. It looks like from this thread the game in the US is getting old.
     
  14. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    They wont do that because they need to move as many units as possible which is why I believe Corp is fine with the car for car process. Corp doesnt care if the dealer is making more money. Cotp comes first especially being public.
     
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  15. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Ok, after Boobernackle’s last post I finally think I get where he is coming from. I don’t know the US market but know the European car market well and the UK market very well. I know the US laws are reputed to be much more stringent governing how dealers trade, affording them more protection from manufacturer influence. However, from the basic description given about not marketing outside state but being able to sell to walk-in customers out of state, this is exactly mirrored in the EU’s block exemption legislation which governs how manufacturers, distributors and dealers should trade so I am not too sure why the US laws are supposedly stronger. This is important because I don’t believe Ferrari would want to behave differently in the US to their home market unless they are forced to. His description of how dealers can sell one car extra for retro bonus is how much of the industry works - a classic ladder-bonus scheme.

    The thing that I think slightly complicates Boob’s view is that for everyone else there are cars that they have to discount or ‘work hard’ to sell because supply is much less limited (it is estimated that the global industry produces more cars than customers by quite a margin). Porsche, for instance, (I have just yesterday bought one for my wife) have plenty of allocations for various cars coming through and will deal somewhat to move them. With Ferrari in the UK I have tried extremely hard over the years and it is just very difficult, except a little on a used car, which may or may not be on SOR. One of our dealers buys 911s privately and managed some quite large discounts, even for cars he spec’d himself. Therefore the ladder-bonus scheme works. But still, dealers don’t simply wait to the last car to work out they will be short and then ‘blow it out’ to reach target. They are planning for the quarter, half or full year how they will get to their target. If the market turns down sharply near the end of a period and they have little time to respond they may try to ship a few out very quickly and this is when the best deals are offered. They are just as likely to push the manufacturer to try and honour the bonus at a lower sales level though because everyone knows that forcing too many cars is damaging. Usually the allocation or stock is in the pipeline and “everything gotta go!”. There are other complications like when one dealer starts trying to spray cheap cars all over the place - the rest of the network complain bitterly and if the manufacturer does nothing end up doing the same themselves. This turns into a free-for-all and eventually customers turn off from this behaviour and a brand is forever consigned to being a discount brand. Only about a quarter of brands are in this space. The rest try and keep discipline.

    With Ferrari at the moment there is such a large demand and under-supply I think it works differently, more as I am led to believe by my dealer. There is no question that a list is certainly generated by the dealer. But there is also no question in my mind that the factory have to agree that list - at least for early allocations. This means that if a car has comparatively few planned build slots allocations never get beyond that first list of challenge people, VIPs and selected tactical allocations (celebrities etc.) The question then becomes how far will the allocations go beyond that point. The next tranche are obviously allocated as per B’s suggestion, at least in the US - you need to have bought something else, comparatively harder for the dealer to sell against his target (say, Lusso). The view that there are false customers or ‘dealer mules’ on the list and Ferrari don’t know about it is what I struggle to believe and I am fairly certain it doesn’t happen in the UK for fear of sanction by Ferrari (and they can easily find out). I have no doubt it has happened before but I think dealers play a fairly straight bat because they dare not risk the reputation of the dealer group with Ferrari - these are not mom and pop stores, they are run by paid employees working for publicly quoted companies who dare not take the risk. Therefore they will complain against each other at dealer meetings if they suspect it is happening and they are not getting their fair share of allocations. Ferrari are also very keen (sometimes very very keen - not always easy for people with busy diaries...) that people attend their events so they can get to know the VIP customers over and above the dealer relationship. Perhaps US laws restrict Ferrari from being so involved over the pond, but I would be genuinely interested to know what is different in the US compared with the EU’s block exemption regulations that allows this?

    As all this started, so much depends on how long they plan to run the Pista production. I think Geneva will tell us a lot since if the new 488 or Uber-488 is launched then we can expect a shorter run than for Speciale, especially compared with demand. Personally I’m all for the games - I have spent a lot of money with Ferrari, at the exclusion of other brands, and I would be very irritated if someone else was ahead in the queue having bought far fewer cars, even if they read a magazine article and placed their deposit first.
     
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  16. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Lukeylikey - VERY INFORMATIVE thank you for taking the time to describe all in detail!
     
  17. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    My personal feeling is that Ferrari also makes a very good marketing to distort the perceived supply/demand ratio, and take the highest benefit from this created perception.
    I can't help thinking it could become a risky business approach in the mid-term (which should not worry me too much, Ferrari is not my company).
     
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  18. Robert P

    Robert P Formula Junior

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    Agreed!
     
  19. Cucc1967

    Cucc1967 Rookie

    May 11, 2017
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    ....and or price decreases. I know , sacrilege!


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  20. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula 3

    Feb 10, 2005
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    My dealer just received their first Pista and it is almost 2019. They are not expecting Pista Spiders for the first half of 2019. Ferrari may not produce the Pista for too long if a new car is announced in Geneva limiting the number of Pista and Pista Spiders. What new model will be shown in Geneva?
     
  21. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Jim G shared an email from his Ferrari dealer who said the 488 replacements (plural) would be shown!
     
  22. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
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    Keep in mind dealers don't need to "blow it out" with sales to customers to meet bonus targets. Cars can be sold to a dealership's service department as loaners, which still counts as a sale without flooding/compromising the market. Once said cars reach a certain mileage, they will get taken off the service loaner and sold to customers for a discount. Much better to sell cars to actual customers, but this is an option of last resort and is limited to luxury nameplates.

    I find it hard to believe Ferrari would go through all the R&D of producing a "facelift" 488 for only 1 year, then come out with an entirely new 488, it would rub all their current customers the wrong way. Based on Ferr9000, who is a highly accurate poster pertaining to Ferrari's path, there will be a "Big Brother" to the 488 (separate line), then a 488 replacement at least a year after that. Pista sales are fine and way too early to mess with and drive dealers mad. Do you think many buyers will line up to buy this "facelift" 488 knowing there's a full redesign 1 year away? Didn't think so.

    Also agree with you that it would rub clients the wrong way for a brand new customer to simply walk-in and purchase a Pista, when there are so many others with buying history throughout the years having to wait. Yet, this is what has happened in a few instances with the Lusso/Portofino route and dealers masking it as a "requirement by the manufacturer", which is just marketing. Seems many folks have come to their senses and called this out for what it is, which is why dealers started going the "buy the flavor of the month" from a prior post.
     
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  23. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    So much energy on trying to get a car that is not limited and will be readily available in a few months.
     
  24. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Good point! So Ferrari is introducing the new 488 replacement models at Geneva in March 2019. The V6 car is at least a year behind that intro.
    This would seem to indicate a short life span for the Pista models to.
     
  25. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    458 had a 6 year run. 2010 to 2015. 488 2016-20??

    If it’s the same 6 year run it will go till 2021 which means production runs for another 18 months. However some have reported that they have stopped making 488s already.

    Who knows what’s going on.
     
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