Challenge Flamblocs - Ride Quality | FerrariChat

Challenge Flamblocs - Ride Quality

Discussion in '360/430' started by mwstewart, Sep 3, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    For those who have tried the Challenge Flamblocs on a road car; what did you think to the ride quality? Was it noticeably harsher than stock?

    Thanks.
     
  2. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,913
    USA
    How many variants does Ferrari make? F430, Scuderia and Challenge?
     
  3. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Yes - applicable to 360 and 430.
     
  4. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max
    Is it confirmed that the challenge flamblocs will fit a 430?

    What is the difference between the 430,Scud and challenge flamblocs? Is it just the bushing material?

    I have contacts in the plastics industry and fabricating some custom bushes from Teflon filled nylon or acetal (delrin) is easily done.

    I’d be happy to do a large batch of these and sell to those who’d be interested. I understand the tolerances are an issue too with the standard flambloc bushes being loose on the housing.
     
  5. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    yes, just bushing is different.
    i dont think road cars fitted with teflons are good
    it shocks your ride all over

     
  6. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I decided against it in the end - too harsh for the kind of road surfaces I drive on.
     
  7. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,683
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Once upon a time I had a car with Delrin bushings (240Z not Ferrari). Admittedly the springs were stiff and everything about the car was set up for racing. The car was fun to drive but the ride was atrocious. Even cracks in the road felt like you hit a curb. That much impact makes things creak and you spend a lot of time trying to get the rattles and such out. If it isn't a track car it would not be my first choice.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Wonder why Ferrari calls flanblocks flamblocks?
     
  9. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max
    Perhaps we experiment with a lubricated 92a polyurethane or similar.

    Mark you seem to be the expert in this area. Perhaps you could tell me; Other than the Ti springs and different material in the flamblocs what are the differences between the suspension in a regular 430 and a Scud? Are the dampers setup/valves differently?

    I drove a Scud for several thou kms and it rode, handled steered so much better than my regular 430. The ride was really well sprung and compliant, comfortable even. Plus felt sharper than my 430. Iam now on a mission to improve my 430. I’ve started with H&R springs and an aggressive wheel alignment. Next step will be a complete overhaul of all Flamblocs followed by a rebuild of the shocks if required.
     
  10. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,241
    Gibraltar
    Full Name:
    360trev
    Just seen this thread...

    Weight reduction really improved ride quality, particularly unsprung masses like wheels, brakes, etc.

    I don't think Delrin will be as bad as everyone is worried about but will make a huge difference to handling precision. Delrin will also mean you never get slop on any of the wishbones again. The rubber ones where lucky to last a season of Challenge racing without slop induced by wear. Delrin simply lasted and lasted. I think most of the harshness will be eliminated by the electronic damping anyway. At low speeds it will soften the suspension off so it won't impact lower speed secondary ride as much as you'd imagine.

    Polyurethane is done by various companies but I only ever found F355 versions, never 360/F430/CS/Scuderia compatible bushes for general sale. When I fitted challenge uprated bushes I didn't really get any degradation in ride but the car felt a bit more controlled.

    If anyone makes Delrin bushes i would definitely buy a set... Also good to do rollbar bushes too as they are prone to wear too. I'd keep the shock bushes on Challenge rubber and then I think you will still get good comfort as well as acceptable ride with a much sharper feeling.

    Just my 2p's...
     
  11. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max
    This is super helpful thanks Trev.

    I have a set or bbs fi’s so doing my best to sort the unsprung weight issue. Should save 9lbs a corner.

    Machining the flamblocs from either PA or polyurethane will be very cheap once we have the dimensions. Both are cheap materials. Can then experiment between PA(delrin) and polyurethane. My hesitation with poly is possible squeaking so a lubricated poly will be important. If you can get the dimensions, I can get the machining sorted. Otherwise I’ll get the dimensions when my mechanic finds me a spare flambloc.

    Thanks for your advice regarding the ARB and shock bushes. Makes complete sense re shock comfort.
     
  12. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Differences:
    - The wheels are lighter;
    - CCM brakes are lighter;
    - The suspension module is recalibrated. This controls the baseline damping rate in each drive mode as well as some damping characteristics;
    - The physical damping rate is different i.e. the shock absorbers, which are also cast from a higher quality alloy to enable them to be weight optimised at the unsprung mass end;
    - Spring rate is marginally increased - in relative terms it's a small difference, but the effective rate change is greater due to the weight loss in the rest of the car;
    - Front ARB is smaller by 1mm;
    - Rear ARB is tubular and there were two versions: from memory early is 21.5mm and the later 16M type 22mm. Rate his higher than the F430;
    - The flamblocs are lower deflection (and noisier in operation!);
    - The steering rack ratio is 15:1 (F430, 360, and 360 CS are 16:1);
    - Geo settings and ride height are tweaked.

    Converting an F430 to the above is very involved, with things like the dampers not being compatible with the F430 module which leads to a host of other changes, however, it is possible to get 75% of the way there with significantly less effort.

    My recommendations in order of approach:

    1) Ensure all links and bushings are in good order;
    2) Fit lightweight wheels with Ti bolts;
    2) Fit CCM brakes;

    At this point the car handles uneven surfaces significantly better (yes, really) than a car with iron brakes and standard wheels. The upshot is that race mode becomes more usable on all surfaces and body control is improved. Of course, stopping power now matches the car's performance!

    3) Fit the steel version of Scuderia springs. These are extremely cheap (front part no: 216381 £58.65/$74.39 each, rear Part No: 230574 or 257179 £290.50/$368.47 each);
    4) Full geo to Scuderia spec. Note: don't go too low! Wheel travel or rather lack of it on the F131 chassis is a bit of a problem.

    The car will now respond better and be a faster, more enjoyable proposition on the road.
     
    Manda racing likes this.
  13. Tackleberry

    Tackleberry Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 11, 2014
    359
    United Kingdom


    I did exactly this.
    Had the Steel Scuderia Springs installed, along with the Nylon Slippers, and full Scud Geometry.

    Night and day difference in handling and feel, and little noticeable detriment to ride quality.


    With regards to Bushes I came across this a while back.
    I think these guys are in Singapore, but they made a custom set of Urethane Bushes for their Scud.

    Almost tempted to try it myself, but would like more info about it first.

    (3) Eurotuner Sdn Bhd - Photos
     
    Manda racing likes this.
  14. Russell996

    Russell996 Formula 3

    Sep 24, 2010
    2,263
    New Forest UK
    Full Name:
    Russell
    Thought the Scud springs were titanium, they made a steel version as well?
     
  15. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,241
    Gibraltar
    Full Name:
    360trev
    Yes they did Russell. Both sets are or at least where available from factory. Ti ones where much more expensive with just a tiny bit of unsprung weight difference, they are almost as good as each other. The main benefit is they are uprated spec so you get a lot less pitch and roll. Car feels much tighter with the correct geo setup done. Couple it with the remapped suspension ECU and it's a night / day improvement. How's the 16M ? Still got it?!??!
     
  16. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max
    This is all fantastic info. Thanks so much for everyone’s input. Next obvious q is: what is the scud geo setup?
     
    Evad likes this.
  17. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,241
    Gibraltar
    Full Name:
    360trev
    I definitely posted it before on here. Also check my geo spreadsheet calculator. I'll find a download link from my build thread and post it when I get a few minutes...
     
  18. Russell996

    Russell996 Formula 3

    Sep 24, 2010
    2,263
    New Forest UK
    Full Name:
    Russell
    Hi Trev
    Yes still got it and still sporting your carbon goodies.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    360trev likes this.
  19. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max
    Thanks 360 Trev - i'll dig this up again... I can recall you posting this at some point.

    Iam still going to try for a poly or Acetal flambloc replacement just for the fun of the project. Plus mine at 30,000 km and 11 years old now...
     
  20. ur84wr

    ur84wr Karting

    Jan 6, 2015
    101
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Max

Share This Page