What Is a Reasonable Price Over Sticker To Pay For Pista?

Image Unavailable, Please Login This one has surfaced on the resale market in the uk.

Without knowing the full spec and all the options, the uk new list price is probably somewhere close to GBP 320k given the carbon wheels - so the dealer is asking for circa GBP 140k over list by my reckoning.

Let’s see how long it takes to move....


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No need to pay $180K over when you can buy this one for $150K over. $30K cheaper and it took two days for it to show up. In a month you'll probably see one for $110K over, and then $95K over...

Patience will be rewarded and you'll quickly find out what they're really going for. This is going to end up just like the GT3 RS and 911R.. wild speculation and people asking huge money, and the cars just sitting there forever.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-Ferrari-488/303040974631?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=a6aba3c8083d4f6197d31de740774c28&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=303040974631&itm=303040974631&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:eb4beb90-235e-11e9-853a-74dbd1806d90|parentrq:970fc3701680ad4829a9a341ffef9968|iid:1

 

Same car as was posted on Saturday asking $170k over. They already dropped the price $20k.

 

What one asks vs what they actually get is something else.

Think market might soften on Pista like GT2RS market did. Started somewhere around $180K over and dropped pretty fast as cars started to sit. The $550K market of buyers (for Pista) is pretty small and without it being LE, will be interesting to watch. Doesn't take away from car (especially paying MSRP), just pure pricing discussion.

Think you'll see $50-80K over at most come late spring (maybe less). Which again if you pay MSRP, you are in good shape to drive for free until it gets to MSRP. Pretty good deal.

 

Not sure how long it will take to sell but the wheels look hot. Is that not a discontinued option, or out of stock??

 

Miles kill the modern limited editions. If one drives it they’re unlikely to be able to drive it for free. Maybe one can own in for free with delivery miles.


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off topic...TT, your TDF is for sale. I am curious what your take is on that market? What is your opinion of the TDF becoming a true icon like your F40?

 

I would pay zero over sticker .. I am being offered to buy a lusso which I do not want they buy it back it never leaves the showroom and sell me a Pista at list total loss about 80k but I have told them no and will NEVER agree to that deal.. I am holding out for sticker ...
it will happen.....confidence 80%...
but not so sure maybe a 16M would be a better car....kinda miss my scud

 

I got cold feet so my tdf isnt for sale. Dont know if it will be iconic, highly doubt it. It wont be looked at ahead of its time because nothing today is. It will never be an f40. You also have the baseball card dynamic - collecting cars has become more institutionalized so in 20 yrs there will be a larger number of low mile well cares for examples where as with the 80s and 90s cars u didnt have as much.

In my opinion guys went overboard with customization and funky color combos. At 1.3+ I thought prices were too high versus an f40 but it made sense for them to peak during the first part of the production cycle. I never thought about flipping mine during those high price times. I think a nice well specced tdf will hang in around the 1m mark. They cld easily goto 800 but if pista prices are anywhere in the 600s i think delivery mile tdfs will stay around 1.1

I can see the f40 being a 5m car one day.

 

A 355

 

thanks for that.
Much appreciated.
So if I am reading this correctly in your view the TDF is maybe more marketing than something truly extraordinary (F40)? And..that Ferrari will create many similar TDF type cars? Cars to meet the market demand for perceived specialness vs cars that Ferrari (enzo in the case of the F40) wanted to make and maybe was less concerned with the marketability?

 

There is no way I would put a TDF in the same category as an F40. To me Ferrari has found their formula- sell a regular production car- 488, F12 etc and then near the end of production, spice it up with a limited edition model aka Speciale, TDF, Pista. To me, there will be many more varieties of the TDF- I’ll bet a million bucks the 812 TDF comes out near the end of the 812 cycle.

But F40 is once in a decade car. You had F40, F50, Enzo, La Ferrari- all ultra exclusive, all ultra rare.

This is not to take away from the TDF but it’s just a different ballgame vs f40.

 

F40 f50 enzo and laf are supercars.

Everything else is a limited or mildly limited edition.




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Did you think about keeping the Speciale along with the Pista?
I’ve kept the 16M for 5+ years (record for me along with CGT) and added the Speciale. I would love to add Pista in the future but will wait on secondary market (I’m not a special Ferrari customer and won’t play their game).
P.S. we Love our G4x4!
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Would not pay for anything over msrp. Unless it's sure to appreciate.

 

Do you own a dealership in North America, because your reasoning doesn't indicate that? In fact, it was you that accused me of Fake News in another thread, then walked back on it after reading my post on how franchise laws in North America do protect dealers in what manufacturers can and can't force us to do. A manufacturer can provide guidelines, like furniture, decorations, etc, but they can't interfere with who we sell cars to and for how much.

Just because I stated some reviews felt the Pista is not as good as a Speciale does not mean it's a terrible car. A Speciale would be a 10/10 with the Pista being 9.8/10. These are all subjective, but both incredible nonetheless, and don't even get me started on your math, 20% of $1,000 is a lot more than 20% of $100. The Pista is a big jump, almost $140K more than a well equipped Speciale.

As I have stated numerous times, allocations in North America begin and end with dealers, even with the LaFerrari. In the case of the LaF, it was dealers that compiled the list of customers to be sent to Ferrari, and only because it was a truly limited car... again, dealers compiled the list of customers first, not the other way around.

The advice of "wait and they will become freely available" was never mine at all, but came from ttforcefed. My recommendation is to be patient and have sufficient history with your dealer. That means different things to various markets, if you're in a top market like SoCal, etc., well that means you're history with your dealer will be greater than another buyer in a smaller market.

Here you go, allocations begin with dealers and if you think Ferrari dealers are immune, you're off by a mile. Ignore the first half, I know you can figure it out and North American customers will notice a lot of similarities being played by Ferrari dealers. Unfortunately, this is the state of the industry, but not all dealers are created equal.



To the OP, take the advice of those that are actually in the space. With only the purchase of 1 car (812 SF), it'll be hard to get a Pista allocation, but this all depends on your market and how much above MSRP you're willing to pay, getting a new Pista at MSRP will be very tough in your case.

 

No, I am in UK/Europe as I often mention in my posts. Laws governing European dealers also ‘officially’ restrict manufacturers from dictating price etc. to dealers but that doesn’t stop manufacturers from exerting significant control over dealers. That is especially true where there are fewer cars than customers as in the case of Ferrari. I have never claimed to be an expert on US law, which I know is considered tough, but I suspect the same principles apply - a manufacturer also has the right to decide the scheme he uses to allocate cars.

The point about magazine reviews is that they are opinion and only that. Your previous post linked reviews to the assertion that (paraphrasing) “we know the Pista is not as good as the Speciale”. How can that ever be known one way or the other, it is too subjective. I am a very keen Speciale owner having had mine from new, will not sell it and have done numerous road trips in it now with about 11k miles on it. I know its strengths and weaknesses very well. I don’t own a Pista yet but expect its strengths and weaknesses will be quite different but equally engaging. How does someone really compare them? As for percentage maths, I would have thought that was very obvious. £32k difference in 2003 is not the same as £32k difference in 2019. Percentages are exactly the right way to compare. And I stand by my assertion that Pista is not the most aggressively priced of the four track specials.

Your third para is very confusing. You say that allocations begin and end with dealers (something you have argued for a long time - they play “games” - which also presupposes they have full control over allocations). You then go on to say “dealers compiled the list first, not the other way around - in other words Ferrari look at it in the second instance. That is much more like what I have been arguing - that dealers compile a list first and Ferrari themselves then have a say in the list. You even used the LaF example of dealers submitting a list to Ferrari. Whether a limited car or not, the law is the law. What you are saying here sounds exactly like what I have been led to believe by my own dealer, a point I have made many times. The dealers compile a list and Ferrari vet it. Apologies if I have misunderstood your many posts but some of what you are saying in this third paragraph rings completely true to me. The implications, though, are that dealers asking customers to drop $80k on a Lusso are not doing that purely for their own profit but because there is a second vetting of the list and the purchase of a Lusso helps with their standing. Ferrari in Europe (and I suspect the US) is not like Porsche in the US where dealers just whack an additional sum onto the MSRP. This indicates Porsche dealers have a completely free hand as you are describing. Ferrari do it differently which suggests Ferrari dealers do not have a completely free hand (otherwise they would do exactly the same as Porsche - hike up the price). I personally prefer the Ferrari method, though at least with Porsche it is easy to see what is happening even if it is a rather cold way to treat customers. (I hesitate to use the word ‘greedy’, it is business after all, but many I know would).

You have regularly and strongly advised that people just need to wait and the allocations will come. I only say that nobody can know that at this point. Your logic has been that (again paraphrasing) “it’s the way of the world, Ferrari are increasing production, they are just playing games to bump up demand, they will produce enough for those who want because they want the money...” I think there are other much more complex things going on behind the scenes that may be interfering with that standard view.

The video?!! That is, er....a Porsche?! Aside from the fact that he was so dull, he was describing how Porsche dealers operate (and fairly disingenuously too). He said that people who spend a lot of money with Porsche obviously get a car (that’s a negative...) and those who want to flip a car get rejected (also a negative...) and the others who want to buy the car to drive (“because we Porsche dealers want people to drive the car not invest in them...”) they put into a lottery and draw out the ’lucky winners’! Now I am very sceptical. And what on earth do Porsche dealers have to do with how Ferrari dealers operate? Forgive me but I cannot see the sense in posting that video.

I am not trying to be obtuse or trying to claim I know the US market in detail. What I have struggled with (and please, I am trying hard to not be personal or condescending because you are obviously knowledgeable and clearly a car-lover so we share at least the second point in common) is that Ferrari are happy to operate completely differently in the US than in Europe. To clarify my view as simply as I can manage...

- dealers compile a list of who gets what allocation, Ferrari vet it so both have to be happy with who gets an allocation for the in-demand cars
- this means that when dealers suggest the purchase of other product it is partly because they want to sell them but also because it helps the dealer to argue the customer’s case with Ferrari
- normally you can assume that Ferrari will produce more Pista than Speciale but dealers have repeatedly said that Pista allocations will be scarce. There are reasons, mainly to do with the need for new powertrains and fast-changing/comparatively unexpected emissions regulations changes, that normal rules may not apply. Because of these reasons I believe it is dangerous to assume there will be many more Pista produced and that dealers are ‘just trying to build hype’.
- Pista is expensive but it is not as wildly overpriced as some want everyone to believe. The fact that allocations are still difficult, a year after announcement, suggests pricing is not unreasonable either.

My views are views and they may not be correct. This is not aimed at you (boobernackle) but I do rail a bit against the undertone of many posters on fchat who seem to want to say some or all of “Ferrari play stupid games, Ferrari are making average products, Ferrari are being left behind, Ferrari customers buy because they don’t know any better” and so on. I happen to enjoy the Ferraris I own, the relationship I have with my dealer, the ownership experience and I think Ferrari are a wonderful company doing a fine job, probably better than they have ever done. No doubt there are people that feel very differently but on a forum, and even more so on a Ferrari forum, I believe there is a way to make this a conversation amongst like-minded individuals rather than an exercise in bashing everyone else over the head by making points, the ultimate objective of which is to justify to others (and yourself?) why you bought what you bought instead. I am an ex-McLaren owner. I loved the car and contributed regularly to McLarenlife forum. But I then fell out of love with the brand and realised it isn’t for me. I don’t think I will own another McLaren anytime soon - I don’t prefer the feel, the look, the engine. But I completely respect those who feel the opposite. I don’t go on McLife anymore and certainly don’t look to tell them why their car is rubbish, I actually respect them, even those who flamed me on various occasions! If you check my fchat posts (very boring and far too long) I believe you will not see me disrespecting that brand or those who love it in a way that I don’t. I remember that I did love it once. Anyhow, as you were, rant over.

 

As someone trying to enter the Ferrari world, this thread is scary. It's not as bad with Porsche. Have to wait 5 years to get a GT3RS, but I can get it at MSRP. Ferrari dealers overcharging so much is scary.

 

Gawd....the front of that 16M is soooo sexy!
Love it!

 

Yes I did consider it but had to make a decision between it and the Ford GT that I currently own as well. I felt that the dissimilarity of the Pista and Ford GT (along with the Performante Spyder I have on the way) would give me more varied driving experiences than selling the Ford GT and keepin both Ferrari’s. Obviously financially it was more helpful as well.

 

Ferrari dealers undercharge, not overcharge... thats why limited editions trade at a premium in the secondary. Instead of overcharging ferrari dealers ask you to buy another production car.


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This seals the deal for me. No new Ferrari for TF. I wasn’t interested anyway because they no longer make a stick (thank you Porsche for now). But a Ferrari as a fashion accessory? Doesn’t anybody drive their cars anymore?


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Dealers will play games as long as customers let them get away with it. No matter the brand.

 

Depends on how you define MSRP? It's not as simple as paying what the window sticker says.

The vast majority of people getting a Pista in the States might be paying MSRP but not really when you take into consideration all of the cars they have bought in the past, bought in order to purchase the Pista, consigned/traded in, leasing cost, extended warranties, etc.

The average Pista owner who receives one at MSRP is probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in losses before they even get to the point of getting one at MSRP. (it's just not a thing that is talked about on these forums by people and others get duped into this whole depreciation or lack of depreciation thing).

I know more than a few people getting Pista's at MSRP, but not really. If they wanted to recoup losses and isolate just to the Lusso or Portofino or Cali T or any other high price used car that their dealer is making them buy then it isn't MSRP at all.

Just some examples of people not involved in any of the race programs;

Person 1... initially bought a used 485. To get a Pista allocation much later in 2019 then he had to buy a used speciale (high price obviously) and a Portofino. He can brag about getting it at MSRP but is it really?

Person 2... Bought brand new 430, 458 coupe, 458 spider, f12, 488 spider, balked at lusso to get early allocation but settled on portofino. At least $350K in losses to get Pista.

Person 3... Bought brand new 430, 458 spider, two high spec f12's, 488 spider, lusso in order to get Pista. He's well over $400K in losses to get Pista.

Person 4... Bought 458 spider, high spec f12, 488 spider, lusso in order to get Pista. He's well over $200K in losses to get Pista.

None of the above takes into consideration the leasing cost, registration, consignment fees, etc.

The price in secondary market will reflect all the losses that people took in order to get a Pista. Person #4 has told me that he knows of two sales of Pista's in California. (one sold for $200K above and another for $125K above). I'd take it with a grain of salt because initially he told me he lost $40K on lusso but it was really $80K and he has bought Pista solely for the purposes of flipping it. Initially he said he had a buyer at $200K above but has now revised it to $100K above.

 

Pretty sure the car will follow the Speciale pricing curve. It wasn’t a limited edition either you know. 450k MSRP cars will sell for 490-500k for the foreseeable future, dropping back to MSRP in 4 years or so when the next cool track car arrives. Pista will be 120k over a Speciale which is 120 k over a Scud...

The CS is the only car to have the “second price bump” so far in the line of these cars so it alone represents anything resembling an “investment” car. (I’m excepting the 16M and the Aperta which were LE cars).

Personally I’m going to drive the snot out of mine, track it and then sell it in 4 years with 7-10 k miles on it to.m buy the “next” one as as Enzo said.