I should have stayed in Brasil!

LOL, Arlie, you certainly have a glass half-empty view on life.

Do members of the lucky sperm club have advantages that most don't? Sure they do. Does their name guarantee them success and wealth, rarely. There is more opportunity in this country and this world now than there has ever been at any time. Most any town in this country has lots of well known young business people who are first generation and are building their empires. A friend of mine is mid-30's, born dirt poor, and is now one of the richest developers in town. He didn't get hand outs, favors from rich friends, or win the lottery, he worked his ass off and sought opportunity where people like you claim none exists.

Not only is it possible to rise above your fiscal upbringing, but it is the norm. Take a gander at the Forbes 400 sometime. Try and track how many of the same names show up decade after decade(not many) if you want to see how well wealth transfers.

This is THE land of opporunity. New wealth is being created daily and at every increasing rates.

Interseting article in last months Forbes magazine about who helped more people, Mother Teresa or Michael Milken, makes for an interesting read.

 

Probably Michael Milken helped more. But the self sacrifice was probably exponentially greater in Mother Teresa's case. If this wasn't Forbes, but a religious magazine, would its readers hold Mother Teresa or Michael Milken in awe?

Sunny

 

My parents immigrated here from Italy with Nothing. Dad worked his butt off to learn how to be a mechanic. As a mechanic, worked long, long hours to save up money to buy a house, and support his 4 kids. Mom went to school to earn her bacheolors, then a masters and became a teacher. Over time, their house appreciated, and they sold it to buy a nicer house. Helped their kids through school, etc.

Now they have a nice house, some money in the bank, and 4 adult, responsible (presumably ) kids. Growing up, I was the kid with nothing, from across the tracks, so to speak. And, I've been able to grow on my parents success. I went to school, got a Ph.D. I earn decent money, save for my kids education, and even bought a ferrari (albeit a cheap one).

So, even without the opportunities of the "fat cats" my parents did well for themselves. Because of that, I had better opportunities.

This is the american dream, and it happens every day. Nobody stopped my parents. They worked hard, and made success for themselves. I will hopefully become more succesful, and my kids even more so.

Dude, nobody is stopping you from achieving success.

Dom

 

People keep asking, "What's your point?" over and over again. Perhaps because this is a Ferrari site, maybe the people that I'm addressing are too far up into the wealthy upper echelon to understand. My point is this:
We teach children to work hard, be honest, be yourself and don't be a phony person. Then we as a society do JUST THE OPPOSITE! We plaster the newscasts and news magazine shows with glorious tales of people who GOT RICH QUICK by winning the lottery and not working hard. And we point our news cameras at people who lied, cheated, or stole their way into the limelight, copped a plea with their slick legal team, then got off with a slap on the wrist, then made an "honest" fortune off of telling their tale of their "illegal" doings. We tell kids to "be yourself". Yet we plaster the media with TV shows about "TOTAL MAKEOVERS". Change your hair, lose that weight, get plastic surgery, cap those teeth, buy a new wardrobe, upgrade your car, etc, etc. That doesn't sound much like "being yourself" at all. It sounds like we, as a society, are cultivating a crop of phonies for our next generation where appearances and wealth is all that counts, and hard work and integrity is a ticket to the poor house and obscurity. When was the last time anybody saw a TV show about Joe the Ditchdigger: His life and story. Or Bill the Bagboy: My life at the grocery store check out line.

 

But what does any of this have to do with THONGS?

 

Huh? Thongs... Where? Oh. I could forget about the debate for a 'lil bit of that. *ahem*

Sunny

 

Yeah just bring on the thongs!!!!!!

 

Actually I don't think it illustrates your point at all. What are Bill Gates' material assets? He has a nice house, a couple of Porsches, but beyond that, I don't know of much in the way of material things. And I think he dontates a HUGE chunk of what he has and he does it with frequency.

I'm sure Bill Gates helps his family too - but he also donates billions to various other causes. The thing I don't get is how can you honestly criticize the guy for not doing enough? You say in another post that he believes $10MM is enough for his kids, but it's not enough for him. Can you honestly say you would keep $10MM if you were him and give everything else away?

If you are that philanthropic, why are you driving a Jag? Wouldn't, as someone else said, a 10-year old Yugo be enough to get you around? Why do you have a PS2 and a home theatre system? Isn't a walkman enough? Or a used 8-track player for that matter?

I wonder if you give to charity as much as you suggest others should. If you are "worth" $50k, do you give as much as a % as Bill Gates does? Or are you suggesting that "he can afford to give more" when you can't???? Couldn't a guy living on the street criticize your "wealth" also?

And in your last paragraph, you said it's not the difference in the quantity given, but the desire to give. Are you honestly informed enough about Bill Gates' giving to be able to criticize him for it? Or Paul Allen's for that matter? Both give back a LOT to society, maybe in different ways. But it sounds like you picked the wrong couple of guys to accuse of being stingy with their money. of course, if you think ANYONE who is spending 20 or 50 million here or there is too stingy with their money, then it sounds like you believe we should practice wealth resdistribution or tax people at 99% to keep them down. Isn't that what communism and socialism was all about?

 

Exactly, quit crying and your beer and get off your ass.

 

This is a crock. You can do ANYTHING you want in this country, period. So what, some people have sob stories to tell and others are smart enough to pay them to tell them because MOST people are idiots who sit around reading People Magazine and watching Entertainment Tonight to see how "the other half lives" NEWSFLASH: get the fock off your ass, quit bellyaching and YOU can be part of the so-called "other half"

 

Maybe I'm envious that I can't give more back?

We already covered my car, its the appearance of wealth rather than actual wealth at play, remember?

We understand they have a nice house or nice cars, but we make no mention of the magnitude of such things, which illustrates my point.

I wish I was worth $50k, I'd give up half of it since the rest is able to take care of my needs, which are actually my g/f's needs in wanting to get a house. Percentage wise, I've given more than Bill Gates has, and again, maybe I'm just envious that what I give back doesn't make a great difference besides to those close to me. 20% of my net goes to family or friends and I'm probably one of the least wealthy people participating in this thread.

Yes, having a Playstation 2 to use with my g/f's kid and an iPod to take my music with me is greedy. Yes, purchasing my Jaguar was an act of greed because something lesser would work and vanity that I choose to buy what I did instead of a new Toyota. Better?

Per my quotes from people wiser than I, I don't favor wealth redistribution. I truly believe that quote that among the rich there isn't enough to go around and thats all that I'm trying to say. They deserve everything they want, but its doesn't appear to be enough. Thats not a fault of them being rich or someone being poor. As Arlie pointed out, its not these three extremes of people (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Mother Teresa) but everyone else in between that we think are so f'ked up in the head, along with those who blindly support them in comparison to their own sacrifices.

I'm not trying to illustrate how philanthropic that I am. I'm not. But it would be nice to see those who are wealthier be able to get by with a little less or reach the same level of philanthropy.

I've already said that anyone off the street can criticize what I have in the same way, and one step further, so could the average citizens in most countries. If all your interested in is seeing the math, then by all means, I listed my possessions above and can fill you in with more details over PM.

As Steve (Enjoythemusic) implied in another thread, I fear for the generation after us too.

Sunny

 

Yeah, you could start a car air conditioning shop. No, wait a minute. You can't do that without a HVAC license. Can't be spewing any chloroflourocarbons into the air. Maybe you could open a chrome plating shop. No, can't do that without reams of EPA approval paperwork. What are you going to do with all those waste chemicals. Maybe a tire shop? Just be sure to have those old tires disposed of in an EPA approved manner. Maybe you could sell batteries too. As before, just make sure you collect the state tax for "battery disposal" and send those old batteries to an EPA approved disposal center. Maybe do some oil changes. Oh man, that's a big problem. Just make sure you have that used oil collected by an authorized disposal service. Maybe you could paint cars too. Now wait a minute. Do you have an EPA approved paint booth? If you're in the Republik of Kalifornia, it has to be an HVLP paint system. If not, big government EPA fines headed in your direction. Well forget the auto businesses; too many hassles. Let's open a restaurant. Just get those business licenses, liquor permits, health department inspections, fire department inspections, and any other papers all ready to go.
Jeezzzzz. What a bunch of incredible red tape and legal hassles. THAT's RIGHT!!! That's the sort of obstacles that one must deal with THESE days that no business owner had to think about or invest money into 40 or 50 years ago. No wonder so many people got rich back in the "good old days". In John D. Rockefeller's day, if one of his oil tank trains rolled off a railroad track and spilled a zillion gallons of oil in a field, nobody cared. They put the cars back on the track and went on their way. NOWADAYS, if you spill one drum of diesel fuel on the side of a road, they call out the local HAZMAT team, fire department, EPA inspection team, state water inspector, ad infinitum. Then they start shelling out the bills and the fines. In the good ole days, some guys started out when they were kids selling lemondade from a stand in front of their house. Nowadays, the local code enforcement office would probably send the zoning officials and the cops out to shut down that lemonade stand for illegally conducting a business in a zoned residential area, operating a food service establishment without a health department inspection, no retail business license, etc.
See how EASY it is to do anything you want? Just like in Grandpa's day, right?

 

So, nobody ever starts a new business anymore?? Of course there are hassles. If it were easy, then everybody would do it.

Dom

 

Dom, its not that new businesses are not being started. Its that people don't stop for lemonade anymore.

Sunny

 

Actually, I make it a point to buy lemonade whenever I see kids selling some at a lemonade stand. Makes them happy, makes me happy.

Dom

 

Well, the reason they have those taxes and fees on those industrial things you mentioned Horsefly is because those things pollute and hurt others. For centuries we let industry do what it wanted and not everyone decided to protect the air we breathe and the water we drink. So now there are fees and taxes to balance the externalities that society has to bear in cleaning up.

I'll agree certain things are wacky and have lost common sense. I did read about a certain CA neighborhood shutting down a 7yr old's lemonade stand for operating without a permit, but I thought that the city eventually gave the kid a license anyway.

Sounds like you're bitter with California more than anything.

 

Arlie,

If there weren't all those regulations in place, you would be crying about how the 'fat cats' were allowed to destroy our environment and nobody cared about it and nobody held them accountable.

My company designs, manufactures, sells and distributes electronics components for cars and motorcycles. I don't need to worry about all those things you mentioned. I make sure I have a well ventilated and safe environment for those that work with any chemicals. I pay sales tax, property tax, unemployment insurance, electric, gas, lease, phone, internet, parking, and a whole boat load of other fees. I am not 'fat cat' and I busted my hump to start this company, selling virtually everything I owned (and had worked hard 9-6 for years to pay for) so I could start it. We barely made it the first year. We made a smidgen of money the second - but not enough to pay the bills or pay my bills. Doh... there go my savings. By the third I was able to pay my bills reliably and make my car payment. The fourth I paid myself a quite decent salary and hired some folks to help out. And we grew from there. Maybe in a few more years I'll be able to buy my own big house and nice boat and brand new Ferrari for cash. And you (or folks like you) will be quick to whisper how I must have had all the breaks in life, or how I must have had my rich parents pay for everything, or how I just got lucky. I already hear it now... I hear it from people who see us buying a new company car... "wow must be nice to have money" and so on. They just don't understand, and neither do you.

Meanwhile these same people don't know what it's like to go home and spend a weekend cleaning out your garage of "stuff" to find things to sell so you can pay your electric bill thats already past due. Or what it's like telling your family you don't want any presents this christmas because you can't afford to get anything for them.

The thing is Arlie, I didn't get anything handed to me, but I also didn't fabricate excuses as to why *I* wasn't getting my "piece of the pie". I went out and got it, ON MY OWN, without any help. It seems you didn't get your piece of the pie because society kept you down, or the government kept you down, or the fat cats in Washington kept you down. And while your type was complaining on the weekend off from your job about how they had no chance and no opportunity, there were others of us who worked all weekend to make enough to make payroll (hopefully) next week.

Capeche?

 

Can I get an "Amen!"

 

Amen!! I haven't 'been there,' I am there. Good for you man!

Sunny

 

Sunny,

I have to say I am sorry if my comments came across as overly harsh to you in my previous post (err, 2 posts back I guess). I think we probably feel very much the same about philanthropy and wealth. Your reply to my string of questions was great, and you sound like a real grounded and levelheaded guy.

 

"Meanwhile these same people don't know what it's like to go home and spend a weekend cleaning out your garage of "stuff" to find things to sell so you can pay your electric bill thats already past due."

There are some people who work for the "fat cats" who probably don't even have a garage full of "stuff" to raid in the first place. And for what it's worth, I can remember being unemployed and driving my oil burning 1972 Chevelle to the gas station and buying 50 cents worth of gas because I didn't have a whole dollar to spend. Also, some people are capable of managing their meager income well enough so that they don't get into tight spots where they have to "raid the garage" in order to find things to sell so they can pay the bills. It's not MY fault that you cut your finances too tight to the point that you couldn't pay your bills. (I'm happy to say that I've paid every bill, on time, for the past 24 years. And I'm no fat cat.)

"It seems you didn't get your piece of the pie because society kept you down, or the government kept you down, or the fat cats in Washington kept you down. And while your type was complaining on the weekend off from your job about how they had no chance and no opportunity, there were others of us who worked all weekend to make enough to make payroll (hopefully) next week."

I've worked plenty of weekends thank you. That doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to realize that there are plenty of "fat cats" out there who never miss an opportunity to lie, cheat, steal, swindle, insider trade, cut corners, hire illegal aliens, etc, in order to make their pile of money higher than the other guy.
Remember the story about Wal-Mart a few weeks ago? They were raided by the Immigration Department and several dozen illegal aliens were hauled off. Of course Wal-Mart didn't know ANYTHING about them being illegal, did they??? HHMMMMM???

This news flash just in: OJ still searching for the real killers!

 

Mike, none taken at all. I think we do feel the same. Thanks for the compliment! I enjoy your candor and look forward to your posts.

Sunny

 

As much as Gate's creation (windows) was a pain in my ass, I have to respect the guy.

He had the forsight, and cajones, to see the potential market, and then go and CREATE it. Nobody else had the onions that day, or they'd be worth $40B+. Would you have invested in that skinny little Gates kid? Yeah, thought so.


Rich people do A PANTLOAD more for the economy both per capita, and per dollar, than you or I do in a year.

I'm very sorry, but you talk about donating an extra 10%? Well, they do. It's called taxes. Average Joe pays 30%, they pay 50% or MORE. Many of them have donation programs set up outside their taxable obligations as well. And then there's their personal spending. Judge it if you want, but they are the top of a pyramid of a functional and generally prosperous society.



Arlie, Mr. Allen has done more today for the downtrodden, the working, and the just average Joes than you are likely to do in your lifetime. Where's your 10% buddy? Because his is in...


Want more? Yeah, socialism works. Go to Russia, or even Canada, and see how well.


More friggin power to Allen and the likes of Richard Branson (especially if he gets his Concorde.) Do they deserve it? They worked harder, and smarter, than you or I. Yeah, I'd say they deserve it.

 

To those on this thread complaining about Allen's wealth. Well, life sure isn't fair is it? Keep in mind that along with money Allen has also suffered Hodgkin's Disease, cancer of the lymph system. Wealth, and the lack of it, comes in many different forms.

 

Very good point teak, wealth comes in more ways then green paper.

I completely agree with those who say the wealthy have done plenty and deserve every dime, toy, and absurd purchase they have. Also, those absurd purchases probably do more for the economy in employment and the movement of money then most people's lifetime charitable contributions.

I also think 99.9% of the time they don't steal it off the "poor working man" they simply flex their brain to bring in the dough then their arms. 'Don't work hard, work smart' as someone more bright then me once said.

And what a lovely yacht it is with plenty of space to store a little toy like a 38' Top Gun, 42' Lightning, or a 42' GTX to carry with you to your next port of call!