360 weird idle post belt-service | FerrariChat

360 weird idle post belt-service

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by mfennell70, Feb 17, 2019.

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  1. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    I had the timing belt replaced on my 360 a few weeks ago and it's exhibiting a weird behavior. At idle, there's a rhythmic waa-waaa-waaa that comes and goes. Since my car is loud (headers, 200cell cats, tubi), it's loud inside. Loud enough that I have not been able to record it on my phone. I've had the car 8 years so it immediately jumped out at me as Not Right. The idle itself is rock solid at 1050 or so. Outside, the car sounds about right, maybe a slight "flat" sound that comes and goes (descriptive words fail me).

    The shop is planning to pick the car up on Wednesday but I'm hoping to get some thoughts on this. Obviously, I'm suspicious something went awry with the belt service but I don't know what it could be. Cam timing differences between banks? I do realize sh*t happens and it could have nothing to do with the service.

    CEL tripped with an 1123 on the passenger bank. That's related to adaptive fuel trim reaching its limits. I saw this years ago but it went away. I hosed the intake area down with brake cleaner on a cold start w/o effect. Maybe I should replace the original coil packs? Could this be related to the weird sound?

    I hooked up my scanner and the driver's side O2 voltage looked low (I don't have a scope for a proper look). Swapped it out with a known good used sensor and that cleared up.

    Another weird thing: the IATs don't agree. Sitting in the garage, they diverged by as much as 20F. Since I've never looked at them, I have no idea if this is normal or not.

    The car is running really well, it just has this damn noise at idle. Appreciate any thoughts from those who have more experience than me.
     
  2. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,125
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    I am interested in what the shop is going to report. The fuel trim reaching its limit is very interesting, the ECU could be trying to compensate for whatever is wrong. This could be related to the cam belt change, but it could also be completely new issue. The noise could also be from the belt change. I have had cars make noise after changing belts. Some pulleys are just not happy after you disturb them. It may simply be an idler pulley bearing.
    Keep us updated.
     
  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,261
    SOunds like the cam timing is off.
     
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  4. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    Thanks Wade. To be clear, the sound isn't mechanical, more like constructive interference from two tones almost at the same pitch. Like a twin engined airplane with the props not-quite in sync.

    I'm considering waving them off for now and replacing the (original) coil packs. I neglected to mention that the day I noticed, I ran it up to the shop and the SD3 reported some mis-fires on cylinders 2&3. The technician told me it could be a real problem, or it could just as easily be a low-voltage start. He cleared so we could revisit. I'm just being cheap here: I know I can change them out for a fraction of the cost and then I'll have a good baseline car for them to look at.

    Any thoughts about the IATs being different bank to bank?
     
  5. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    Mitch,
    Have you actually experienced that? Because that's my knee-jerk reaction since that's what was just messed with, but I have nothing technical to base it on.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,956
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I sure have. When I had employees and after a belt change on a 360 I could tell in 5 seconds from the sound that the timing was off.
     
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  7. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    #7 mfennell70, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
    Thank you! I have (no kidding) 224 pictures from the work. The timing was clearly altered from start to finish though I just noticed I don't have any pictures showing a degree wheel.

    EDIT: I zoomed and snipped before/after of the passenger bank. I see that the cams have multiple drill holes so the exhaust timing is not as dramatically changed as it appeared (to me) at first. Before and after:
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,956
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Looks like a bunch of meaningless marks to me and none of them show cams in the right places. The first one the belt is loose so who knows what they were recording there.
     
  9. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,965
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    I dont know and could never tell from. This picture either but that being said And the fact I have only worked on a 355 and done only 3 engine out services the bottom picture looks wrong simply because the old marks are way different than where the bolts are now.

    In all my checks of my 355 and looking at 2 others i did not work on he cams were never out more than a mm or maybe 2 at the most.

    Their is possibly other reasons for this but as a guess i would say this is unlikely unless major work was done.
     
  10. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,125
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    I am in agreement that the cam timing is likely off a bit. I have seen it as well.
     
  11. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    Thanks for the additional feedback all. Unfortunately, the weather pushed the car pickup back so it will be a bit before I get some additional info. In the meantime (and unrelated to the noise but maybe to the P1123), I have a set of coil packs on the way from the UK.
     
  12. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    21,511
    In the past
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    Jim
    For the 'left/lower' cam in the photos the adjustment went from one extreme to the other. What's going on there?
     
  13. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,238
    Frederick, Maryland
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    #13 Motob, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    Most likely the cam timing is off. You could check the exhaust cam timing electronically with a Ferrari specific diagnostic tool to see if it is correct, it should be 656-657 degrees (the higher the number, the more retarded the exhaust cam timing).

    If the exhaust cam timing was initially set correctly, I find that it will be 660-661 degrees when the cam belts are old and have stretched with age (as the longer belts slightly retard the cam timing).

    The only way to check the intake is using a dial indicator and degree wheel.
     
  14. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,238
    Frederick, Maryland
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    Most likely they changed the position of the cam sprocket by a whole belt tooth and then tried to compensate by rotating the cam in the sprocket slots.
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    how far off does the cam timing have to be in order for the owner to notice the slightly out of phase sound?
     
  16. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    21,511
    In the past
    Full Name:
    Jim
    At my last belt change the sprockets were at their limit. After moving 1 tooth and adjusting they are now about centered. So something still seems odd. YMMV
     
  17. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    586
    Middletown, NJ
    Thanks for the additional thoughts. I've managed to record the sound on my laptop - sort of. It's so loud that it saturates the mic. My phone just throws up its hands - you can't hear it at all. The laptop at least registers something. I'll see about posting it.
     

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