Prime Air 767 Down, 3 Aboard

Looks to me like they are trying to pull out. At least to my eyes it looks like it's in a steeper descent at the beginning of the video compared to impact. That might be the lens though because there looks to be a bit of a bend to the video image at the corners.

Here's a Youtube that shares both clips.

 

Disappears in a cloud at the bottom of travel in the first video?

 

I disagree to the attempted pullout. It appears to me that the airplane was committed to a dive. I could be wrong but I can't accept the fact that the airplane caused this.

 

Well it's not a fact at this point, and I tend to agree with you that it is highly unlikely that the airplane caused this.

 

And it is certainly not a curvature of the earth perspective thing given altitude for approach to IAH.

 

I disagree, and so far the NTSB does as well. They have already said that so far, this accident is consistent with a loss of control. That said, the actions of the crew could certainly have contributed in one way or another.

Remember Ernie Gann's story about the vibration in the DC-4 coming back from Hawaii? Anyone else would have slowed down, but he wanted to get home and start his vacation, and sped up... thus preventing a bolt (as I recall) from vibrating off, as it had in several other fatal accidents. Fate really is the hunter...

 

I'm not disputing that the airplane was out of control, that is obvious. The point is that it has not been established the cause of that situation, i.e. crew or airplane.

 

If this airplane was inadvertently or purposely left unattended on the flight deck and increased its speed, it could have gone into Mach Tuck that would have kept it locked into the dive. I don't have the figures on the incident but I think that I heard that it lost 6000ft in 20 seconds.

 

FO training records will be looked at carefully. That's all I can say at this point.

 

Prelim report says voices on the CVR are VERY difficult to understand. Loud and garbled, even after filtering.

 

The official NTSB press release says "Crew communications consistent with a loss control of the aircraft began approximately 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording."

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/mr20190305.aspx

Could the crew have done something which resulted in a loss of control? Sure. But I wouldn't conclude that it is "highly unlikely that the airplane caused this" at all. On the other hand, I think it's unlikely (not "highly unlikely") that this is a case of a perfectly good airplane being flown into the ground.

 

I’m not a pilot

Could a cargo shift cause this?

 

Absolutely. And it's possible, but at this point unlikely, that load shift is what caused this. From the Atlas guys I know, the comment was that load shift was unlikely because it would probably shift aft, not forward, first of all. Second, they generally bulk out before weighing out, so usually all the containers are in place. If it were down a container or two, that wouldn't be enough to cause something like this.

But that would be something that will be fairly easy for the NTSB to rule out, so I imagine they already know if that's the case.

Lou would be more of an expert on this than I would be, so I defer to his judgement on this one.

 

I would think that a significant cargo shift would take place when accelerating for takeoff, as in the Bagram 747 crash. At this point in this flight, with the aircraft decelerating for landing, presumably quite gently, and in a rather mild descent, I just cannot see the cargo shifting enough to cause the airplane to go into a dive.

 

Amazon type cargo, i.e. e-commerce, is generally relatively low density (<7lb/cu-ft). A 767 will weight out at 9-10 IIRC.

 

Some more news just in:

The National Transportation Safety Board says "small vertical accelerations" suggest Atlas Air Flight 3591 entered turbulence soon after the pilots had descended to avoid a band of precipitation as they approached a Houston airport.

Seconds after leveling off around 6,200 feet, the cargo plane's engines surged to "maximum thrust" and it briefly pointed its nose 4 degrees up, according to flight data. The jet then rapidly swung to point 49 degrees downward and began its drop toward the muddy bay.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/atlas-air-cargo-plane-crashed-near-houston-killing-3-appears-n982386​

 

Well, that sounds more like a microburst. But I would think they would have had enough altitude to recover.

 

I'm not convinced that it was a micro burst that strong at 6200 feet and no indication of an attempt to recover. 6000 feet straight down at full power doesn't sound right to me.

 

The full statement:

The NTSB reported:

Air traffic control communications and radar data indicated the flight was normal from Miami to the Houston terminal area. About 12:30 pm the pilots contacted the Houston terminal radar approach control (TRACON) arrival controller and reported descending for runway 26L; the airplane was at 17,800 ft with a ground speed 320 knots.

At 12:34, the airplane was descending through 13,800 ft, and the controller advised of an area of light to heavy precipitation along the flight route and that they could expect vectors around the weather.

About 12:35, the flight was transferred to the Houston TRACON final controller, and the pilot reported they had received the Houston Automatic Terminal Information System weather broadcast. The controller told the pilots to expect vectors to runway 26L and asked if they wanted to go to the west or north of the weather.

Radar data indicated the airplane continued the descent through 12,000 ft with a ground speed of 290 knots, consistent with the arrival procedure. The pilots responded that they wanted to go to the west of the area of precipitation. The controller advised that to do so, they would need to descend to 3,000 ft expeditiously.

About 12:37, the controller instructed the pilots to turn to a heading of 270°. Radar data indicated the airplane turned, and the automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) data indicated a selected heading of 270°. The airplane was descending through 8,500 ft at this time.

About 12:38, the controller informed the pilots that they would be past the area of weather in about 18 miles, that they could expect a turn to the north for a base leg to the approach to runway 26L, and that weather was clear west of the precipitation area. The pilots responded, “sounds good” and “ok.” At this time, radar and ADS-B returns indicated the airplane levelled briefly at 6,200 ft and then began a slight climb to 6,300 ft.

Also, about this time, the FDR data indicated that some small vertical accelerations consistent with the airplane entering turbulence. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up. The airplane then pitched nose down over the next 18 seconds to about 49° in response to nose-down elevator deflection. (Editorial Note: the sentence originally read: "and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input." and was later edited by the NTSB). The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.

The NTSB reported the captain had been with the company since 2015, held an ATPL and had accumulated about 11,000 hours of flight experience, thereof about 1250 on type. The first officer was with the company since 2017, also held an ATPL and had accumulated about 5000 hours of flight experience with 520 hours on type.

 

Any new developments on this horrible crash???

 

A Fchat member suggested reading the discussion here
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/618723-atlas-air-767-down-texas-41.html
sort of jibes with post #59 above

 

Looks like you are correct.... report out on the FO.... saw today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lack-understanding-unsafe-pilot-amazon-162200566.html

 

What is amazing to me is that they went from totally normal to dead in about 30 seconds. In this business, we play for keeps.

 

Quote: "Aska had no idea how dangerous the things he was doing were".... flunked tests with 2 other airlines, but hid that info from Atlas (Amazon).

Horrible...horrible...

Aska's family is suing everyone... because he wasn't properly trained among other things...

 

How did he get 5000 hours if he was that incompetent?