Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors. | Page 10 | FerrariChat

Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

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  1. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 21, 2012
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    Does anybody know the cost (order of magnitude) of the two MCAS options there were not on the aircraft? Last night, the news reported that in the United States, SWA and AA bought the options and United declined, citing enhanced pilot training making the option(s) unnecessary.
     
  2. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    Don't know the cost but the cost to Boeing to use the 2 sensors as opposed to one was zero. They had both versions of the software certified, so it was simply a matter of which software version was loaded. They are now making the dual sensor version standard for all new aircraft and part of the retrofit will be to upgrade the software so that both sensors are used on all planes. Should have been that way in the first place. No excuse for it not to be.
     
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  3. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    But, as you stated before what happens when the two sensors do not provide the same information, within a defined tolerance. Hence why Airbus have 3 AOA sensors, 2 primary and 1 secondary. Wasn't MCAS part of the airplane cert? Will the MMEL include provision for dispatch having an inop sensor? Will the FCOM/AFM have instructions to turn off MCAS in the event of an inop sensor? How will the crew know there is an inop sensor? If MMEL allows dispatch wonder how many crews will just disable the system on a regular basis.
     
  4. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
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    Here is an article in the Seattle Times that I saw a week or so ago that explains some of what you are asking. It was considered one level below critical, but never should have been allowed with only one sensor. As I noted above you have to go beyond 2 sensors because if one is failed and supplying an incorrect reading you don't know which one is good, which is why Airbus uses 3. It was indeed part of the cert, they couldn't have certified without it.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
     
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  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    One of Boeing's problems is that the amount of elevator deflection possible turns out to be several times what they gave to the FAA during the certification. How that one works out, nobody knows.

    This could turn out to eventually require EASA separate certification of Boeing aircraft where they now take the FAA certification as qualifying. That would likely result in the tit for tat of the US requiring Airbuses to certify separately through the FAA. Result will be more expensive aircraft and likely a longer certification process.
     
  6. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
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    For all of these sensors, if you only have two you really only have one. As noted, if one signal present but not in agreement with the other you don't have any sensors. But really, there are lots of ways to synthesize the right data from other sensors. That's what we did and that's what these FC computers should be doing. If Scarebus and Boeing had been doing that there would not be literally thousands of dead people from these kinds of incidents. For example, the AOA can be synthesized from ROC, airspeed, changes in airspeed, altitude. All you would have to do is a table lookup and you'd be darn close to what the AOA really was. Similarly, airspeed can be estimated based on AOA, power, altitude and ROC. This costs money and time to do, but in the end that's what really required to have safety when you have an electronic FC system that can override or overcome what the pilot is trying to do. What we have is an outmoded criteria for failures that were based on failure effects that are not consistent with today's systems.
     
  7. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    The UN had a decent number of staff members on the plane going to an environmental meeting in Nairobi.
     
  8. teak360

    teak360 F1 World Champ

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Scott
    I can't believe a little better pilot training wouldn't have obviated the problem. I posted this in the Silver thread, but I think it's a good video to post here too:

     
  9. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Yes... beyond stupid.... putting a bunch of key personnel on the same plane. No one does that anymore.
     
  10. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Tropical
    I read was $60K per aircraft
     
    energy88 likes this.
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    May 27, 2004
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    As a member of the flying public.
    This is a total debacle for Boeing, were talking 60 odd years of jet reputation more than tarnished.

    Years ago the DC10 had bad reputation, and my family certainly avoided them to the degree possible. Whereas a 747 we knew had tripple redundency even where not required. Its was simply the boeing way to build as safe an aircraft as praticable. It was their culture, which differed apparently from douglass.

    Since then Boeing HQ moved to Chicago and off the shop floor. Boeing became a bean counter MBA run companay. The first signs of the effect was the 787.

    Now I read that on the max theres a system without redundency, The old boeing would simply never have done this, period regardless of the FAA. The old boeing I had faith in, the new not.

    Maybe the MCAS is not the sole cause, we dont know, maybe the flaw is more than just the AOA sensor. Fact is two planes nosed over and went straight in.

    What do we have, a plane designed with a single point of failure. But more to the point we have cheap boeing, what else is missing, and we have a bean counter boeing stretching a 60's design past its sell by date because frankly theyre too bottom line orientated to design a new aircraft.

    Boeings in deep doo, because the 737 is where the profit comes from, theres no alternative for them at present.
    One thing they have going for them, the backorders at Airbus and Boeing mean airlines have no immediate other options. Long term there is serious reputaional damage to boeing. Whats needed is change n their corporate culture and pr to that effect,, meanwhil theyre hunkered down making excuses.

    In the short term they need to fix and then rename the Max. I can tell you for a fact that my family members and friends actively wont fly a max and are trying to avoid airlines that fly 737's in general. Yes the flying public is ignorant and lemming like, but theyre the ones buying tickets.

    In time the 737 neo or whaver its renamed will be accepted and people will mostly forget,

    But Boeing has to change its corporate culture from just good enough, or this is the beginning of their end. Boeing also needs the 737 replacement now, because given an option neither airlines nor passengers will chose the 737.
     
    Jacob Potts, red27 and solofast like this.
  12. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
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    What you describe is pretty much the same corporate malady at BP causing the disaster in the Gulf we all know about.....Board rooms are dominated by Sales and Financial powers....sound engineering is being muted.
     
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  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    They understandably concern themselves with increasing their liability exposure but fail too often to get the fact that ship already sailed. Don't wreck your credibility and reputation in the process. With our political environment both of those industries need political friends. Don't put yourself in a position a politician can gain popularity by flipping you off next time a big contract comes up or a new drilling license is needed.
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Fundementaly it’s lack of “leadership” it’s a ceo problem, and to a certain degree a board problem.

    But CEO s do the hiring and set the tone their underlings follow

    Whatever Boeing saved in the short term with a shortchanged max, they’re going to more tha. Loose in the long term
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    DOD is investigating the acting SECDEF right now because of his close ties to Boeing. After an incredible run of success with MQ-25, T-X, and KC-46 wins, things are not coming up roses now for Boeing, at least commercial.
     
  16. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Have any 737 orders been cancelled yet?
     
  17. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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  18. BubblesQuah

    BubblesQuah F1 World Champ
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    Sitting here in terminal 2 in Beijing waiting for my flight back to Dallas. There are Air China Max 8's parked all over the airfield with covers over their engines. Must be at least 25 here.
     
  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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  20. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Demonstrates the degree to which pitch trim can result in considerable horz stab force, and not necessarily able to be overridden by pilot input (elevators). Which in the case of the MAX crashes shows that if pilots were too distracted trying to fight the trim issue with elevator and not able to focus on corrective action (shut off trim actuator/motor) they were fighting a losing battle. Even if they had shut off the trim motor they would still have to manually reset the trim, which is kind of hard to do if both pilots had two hands on the column(s) trying to put max input into the elevators.
     
  21. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Those jack screws are scary.
     
  22. Bisonte

    Bisonte F1 Veteran
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  23. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Bisonte likes this.
  24. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

    Aug 12, 2010
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    A bit off topic.. the article says the max 8s are going into short term storage. Is that just another way of saying they're being parked or is something done to put them in short term storage. I'm assuming engine covers are used.
     
  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Theyre still producing the planes at full rate and running out of ramp space since they cant deliver, so some are being flown out for storage elsewhere.
    Yeah we know an engine problem has nothing to do with the Max accidents, but the TV news optics is bad really bad.
     
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