NEW V8 MID ENGINED MODEL (BIG BROTHER)

Wouldn't be surprised if it has similarities.

 

One of the reasons I though P80 was the camo car initially. Ferrari rarely puts features of their SP cars on production models so maybe that spoiler is just a decoy.

On the other hand, I find that the BB camo car has a real 330 P4 feel about it so maybe the spoiler will be on the car.

 

Not being in the automotive business, I've never done a trade study on material selection for a chassis that needs to meet a multitude of requirements for manufacturablity, cost, crashworthiness, etc., and weight vs. stiffness, so can't say. Keep in mind that the weight and stiffness are highly variable, especially for composites, and depend on construction (plies, cores, etc.) and curing methods (e.g., autoclave or not).

From a strictly material point of view, CF and aluminum have similar Young's modulus (measure of material stiffness) so a simple part (imagine a ruler) in CF would have the same stiffness as a similar aluminum part (same width and thickness) but would be roughly 1/3 the weight for a properly executed part.

For more complex assemblies, like a chassis, the 66% advantage won't carry through because CF requires very special requirements for joining (transitions require progressive build-ups of plies; limited bearing capability so fasteners in shear need thicker material); point loads need inserts typically, etc. Also, depending on how controlled the manufacturing process is, or not, it may require some margin to be added to material thickness to allow for potential voids or disbonds or the development of these in operation.

How this translates to weight savings on the total vehicle weight is hard to say and will be highly vehicle specific.

 

So you gonna tell me you are going to wreck a 430 ? As if. Maybe over your way but not here. FYI $524,354 USD
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btw The cheapest Ferrari for sale right now is 1987 Mondial ( I guess you would call it prehistoric ) for a cheap 86 k or $61,000 USD

 

Thank you for your time and elaborate reply.

 

Everything is turned up to " 11 " on the P80 including the body and underbody design as part of the aero balance front to rear. For a relative street car- BB with a smaller spoiler has a less aggressive body design for street requirements vs the race car.
Remember how the Italia introduced the idea of a spoiler that was molded into that car's bodywork; in that example at the front.
Though again with BB's smaller rear spoiler they were hopefully looking to achieve good aero balance. Something the Enzo lacked...

Further with the new emission rules there is a greater need for cooling of these street turbo engines.
Also the FNA version BB may not get the euro EGP filter which does quiet the exhaust sound further.

 

Your taxes aren't the rest of the worlds problems...

Singapore has equally high prices, maybe more, and their cars can only be driven for 10 years before they are required to be exported or scrapped, or a new extremely expensive registration is purchases. This is why Singapore doesn't have many old cars.

Again, this is only a problem if you wreck your car. Don't wreck it and you're fine. Exotics get totaled out all the time. There are no shorts of salvaged Ferraris out there and I sure as heck wouldn't want to be driving a fast car that's been mangled and of unknown repair quality.

 

Do you really think the FNA (USA) version of any Ferrari (not just BB but any) with a production date of 1/1/2020 or later will not have the OPF,GPF, EPF(i.e. Particulate Matter Filter)?

That date is from here:
https://corporate.ferrari.com//sites/ferrari15ipo/files/Documentazione/sustainability_report_2017__0.pdf

where it is indicated:
SVMs (with a worldwide annual production lower than 10,000 units) are required to be compliant to RDE standards starting from 2020.

No Ferrari produced in recent memory had different emissions systems for different countries (other than the Tdf silencers for Korea/Taiwan/Japan were different)...

I think it would be wonderful if no FNA version had GPF, but I have my doubts.

I think that is the driving reason (no pun intended) why the F8 introduction was moved ahead one year (because the 488 would have to go under an expensive re-homologation for its presumed final production year otherwise, i.e. 5 year model run), and the F8 is going to have the GPF, at least for cars destined for the EU but I believe all production will have the GPF installed...as that has been Ferrari's recent (past 10+ years) way of producing it cars. Having the same powertrain (engine+exhaust) will be most cost-effective for Ferrari, not only that, but, for GPF-fitted cars, Ferrari is going to have to do some 'tuning' of the exhaust note because, as you write, the GPF will definitely take the edge off the sound.

 

The new Porsches already have a PF and their engine note is unchanged. I don't see a reason for panic.

 

I think you're right about SP design features being rarely adopted on regular cars, because the only example I can think of is the SP30 and its side opening that (I believe) inspired the Portofino:

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There's no panic per-se but, according to this it is non-trivial:

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-gasoline-particulate-filter-engines-particulate-matter-engineer-martin-werner-christophorus-388-16349.html

Porsche engineer Martin Werner and his team worked on converting the gasoline engines for filter operation for roughly two years. Because larger exhaust systems don’t fit into the tight engine compartments of the 718 and 911 models, completely new main catalytic converters had to be designed. The previous three-way systems completely converted already gaseous substances such as nitrogen oxides into harmless air components. In four-way catalytic converters, by contrast, the channels in the filters have a catalytic coating. “That leaves no chance for nitrogen oxides and particulates,” says Werner. The filters are relatively short with large diameters to enable flow into as many channels as possible at the same time.

https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/FindPost/1014421

According to a recent article in Christophorus magazine, Porsche R&D spent 2 years developing the GPF exhausts for all Porsche sports cars. A diagram in the Christophorus article shows the GPF unit placed upstream of the cats close to the turbo, thereby creating a further "silencing" effect. This may result in the exhaust mufflers being redesigned to compensate for the increased back pressure the GPF adds to the exhaust system. This may partly explain why the Porsche Sports Exhaust is now deleted from the options list.

This is also interesting reading:

https://www.718forum.com/forum/2017-porsche-718-general-discussion-forum/17014-gpf-post-sept-2018-built-718s.html

Could very well be a new focus point of maintenance and possible failures...too early to tell how GPFs will really play out "in the wild"...

https://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/jan-2018/gasoline-particulate-filters

 

Interesting details regarding those GPF's but initially at least the new Porsche 992 will not have the GPF's on USA builds. Thanks for sharing your info that you have found!
However Ferrari by comparison is a small company and may continue to do one GPF exhaust spec for all markets as you suggest.

 

You're welcome,

I found this as a backgrounder:

https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Forum Files v2/2IBellGPFLubricantTGDiSysSol.pdf

And, at least one car was publicly discontinued due to the required engineering to comply and use a GPF:

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/f80-bmw-m3-to-be-killed-off-early-thanks-to-new-emissions-test/

so, it is definitely non-trivial

 

The M3 was in the end of its life cycle and the outlay wasn't justified. The M4 got the upgrade in order to comply with the Euro 6d Temp regulation though. It was a business decision. An amount of re-engineering is required but it isn't something that will alter the character of a car.

 

Well, try this one on for size...

the minimum volume of the GPF needs to very close to the engine displacement or larger otherwise excessive back-pressure will result and the GPF would be too small to be effective:

https://circabc.europa.eu/webdav/CircaBC/GROW/wltp/Library/WLTP/UNECE-WLTP/WLTP%20Durability%20Task%20Force/Literature%20data%20on%20ATS%20and%20EGR/SIA_PWT2017_FEV_GPF%20section%208%20on%20aging.pdf

can you imagine a 6.5L or greater volume GPF for an 812, where would they put it?

 

While far from the only source of pollution the auto industry is an easy target for the ever expanding rules requirements. The cost vs reward threshold is really being pushed...

 

Not only that, consider this, even if cars emitted zero particulate matter (PM) from their exhaust, there would still be a robust amount of PM stirred up by driving, dust on roadway that consists of all sorts of things, tire leavings, lead, lubricants, other polluting sources that have fallen back to earth, etc...so, PM cannot be eliminated if there are still cars/vehicles driving around...

is that the next step? no more vehicles moving about?

 

Some time ago a Ferrari manager said their next generation alu chassis (with MMC?) would have a similar stiffness/weight ratio as competitors' "industrial" (RTM/OOA) CF tubs. The only CF tub manufacturing they believe better than alu is the pre-preg autoclaved one (F1-style), but it's unsuitable for regular production.

Of course those declarations shouldn't be taken for the absolute truth, because:
1-In the meantime RTM and other "out of autoclave" methods made progress
2-Alfa Romeo 4C showed "F1-style" tubs could be produced in some thousands per year
3-Ferrari (and their partner OMR) heavily invested on alu frames manufacturing and they can't discard it so easily

 

What would be a realistic estimate in terms of dry* weight?

* I know, there are different "ways" of calculating it, so I'd stick to Ferrari's (eg: 1255 for LaF).

 

I don't think Alfa 4c has a f1type carbon tub, Laferrari and pagani's have .

 

Well, the Senna dry weight is 2600 lbs. The P1 had a dry weight of about 3100 pounds.

You can probably use those comparisons to reach a reasonable estimate. This new Ferrari will likely use a decent amount of batteries and not nearly as small as the LF/P1 battery pack.

 

4C has hand-laid prepreg fabrics, then cooked in autoclave

 

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photo Simone Masetti

 

AD is incorrect
wrong car if you read the it

 

car in brisbane
SCUD done 8000klms