When are we going to see carbon tub Ferraris? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

When are we going to see carbon tub Ferraris?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Enzo91, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie

    The CF tub is McLaren's USP. If Ferrari start doing them in it's Jnr range they will put McLaren out of business :D

    McLarens depreciate rapidly enough as it is
     
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  2. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

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    Because the strength and weight benefits are worth it. Aluminum can be as strong or as light as carbon fiber, but not both at the same time. If you drive a convertible McLaren over a bumpy road back to back with a convertible anything else over the same road and can't tell the difference, bless your heart. There's a reason the top of the range Ferraris use carbon tubs and it's not just marketing. Along those lines I think if the Alfa 4C had been released as a Ferrari Dino they would have sold twice as many at twice the price.
     
  3. PaulK

    PaulK F1 Rookie
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    I suppose it's a grandiose fantasy- a lightweight v6 Ferrari with a stick shift that focuses on the joy of driving over lap times. They're making an suv, they got to give real car guys something.
    Eventually Ferrari will have to do something over aluminum, be it carbon or a graphene based structure. After all if your competition is reaping the benefits and more and more of them are doing so, how can you afford not to if you want to win?
     
  4. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    I am with you on the first part of your post for sure....

    Im just not sure the benefits of the carbon chassis and what the competition is reaping in?

    Also, as soon as those carbon structures delaminate are we just going to throw cars in the garbage?

    Carbon is expensive and difficult to repair...

    I think aluminum only weighs slightly more and is more robust as far as its longevity.

    Carbon is great... we all love carbon I am not sold that its the best material for road cars at them moment.

    Also, ferrari has rarely rarely ever been the lightest car.
     
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  5. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    But doesn't your comment prove that marketing matters?

    Ferrari would have sold just as many laFerraris or enzos if they were made of aluminum.

    The difference in weight between carbon and aluminum in a road car gets factored down to very little percentage wise when you add in all the creature features of crumple zones, airbags, power everthing, A/C etc...

    In formula you measure things in grams.... carbon is important.

    In road cars... you weigh things in pounds... and when it comes between 3250 and 3350 pounds... few people can tell... just like your example of driving the mclaren down the road.
     
  6. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    mclarens depreciate rapidly... but my god are they fast. Very few things can even get a glimpse of a 720s tail lights
     
  7. Culprit

    Culprit Formula Junior
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    Carbon sounds exciting but it's really hard to control in cabin noise, vibration and harshness. It's expensive and hard to repair. There isn't necessarily a safety benefit unless you combine it with a 4-point harness and a helmet/hans device.

    It's great for the super series cars but not ideal for regular driving.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  8. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

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    Well yea marketing is always important, but there's a difference between marketing bs and reality. "All wheel drive will get you through any situation" is a good example of marketing bs. Saying a CF tub is lighter and more rigid than an aluminum chassis doesn't fall into that category.

    Even if the weight savings are only 100 pounds, you get that savings with the additional bonuses of rigidity and safety, so you're getting more out of it than just reduced weight. Convertibles get an even bigger benefit since chopping the top off makes no difference to the characteristics of the car and doesn't require additional weight in the form of structural bracing. If you want to get even lighter you can then take the Stradale/Scud approach and start yanking creature comforts like carpet and sound deadening. If it can be done in a cost effective manner I don't really see any downsides to a carbon chassis.
     
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  9. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie

    Win at what ?

    Ferrari already has a pretty successful business empire.
     
  10. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    The downside of the carbon chassis is the following"

    Expense
    One more chemical reaction to deal with
    More bonding that eventually weakens or gives out
    NVH is higher.
    Carbon cars are typically very harsh sounding and very stiff (a good thing until its not)very jiggly, when you hit a big pot hole or transition it sounds like the car is going to break in half
    Accident repair is high
    Insurance is higher due to higher cost of materials and only special shops can repair it.
    It is also difficult to tell what has been comprimized in an accident.
    Then you have the whole issue of delaminating.

    I personally do not think the juice is worth the squeeze at this point. Especially if you can just get the car to perform with the aluminum chassis.

    The otherside is... I do not think this is where the industry is going. A carbon chassis is going to be a dead end in my opinion.

    We are going to be putting in batteries that weigh several thousand pounds. The importance of shedding weight will now be on the battery side of things as the weight savings of carbon vs aluminum is only going to be even less significant. It will be easier to shed the weight from future batteries etc... than the weight savings from carbon to aluminum.
    it s
    If I were a big car company... I would not be investing in carbon technology right now. If everything went perfect... it wouldn't put you in the lead.
     
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  11. SCEye

    SCEye F1 Rookie

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    #36 SCEye, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    I don't think cost savings for customers is high on Ferrari's priority list. Longevity of their products probably isn't high either. Example: Sticky button issue had been around for a long time and as long as the first buyers sell the cars after a few years, let the second-hand buyers deal with the problem.
    Also, comfort isn't very high to a buyer of a Sportscar. Speed, handlilng, and bragging rights trumps comfort and a quiet ride. Actually, the noisier the ride, the more desirable it is. This is a Ferrari, not a Rolls.
    Their primary motivation is panache and mystique. If their products are "behind the times" compared to the other marques, they will not maintain their reputation.
    Right now their products are inferior to McLaren's. They probably have to put out an SUV to compete. Carbon tub is probably next...
     
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  12. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

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    1. Is there a history of carbon chassis cars delaminating and falling apart? If there is I haven't seen it. Not sure what chemicals are an issue either.
    2. If someone t-bones me I'd prefer to have the carbon tub get wrecked and the car totaled rather than an aluminum car getting unbent and put back together since it will never be the same.
    3. Considering that McLaren's offerings are in a similar price range as Ferrari's, I don't think expense is an issue. Somewhere around $60k for a 4C sounds pretty good to me as well. If I fit in one I'd have it.
    4. My insurance isn't bad at all.
    5. The NVH stuff is also something I've not experienced. I've pout about 37,000 miles on my 12C in the 2.5 years or so that I've had it, and I can't say I've ever had any issues with NVH or feeling like the car is going to break apart over bumps. In fact, I'd say it's been the exact opposite. After my first test drive in a 12C Spider with the top down on a bumpy road, I was blown away. When I drove my 911 (a coupe) home over the same road I thought something was broken and immediately dropped it off at my local Porsche shop to have them figure out what was wrong. Turns out I was just suffering from CF tub hangover. I legitimately thought the suspension or steering rack in the 911 was out of whack.
    6. Someone above said CF tubs are fine for supercars that don't get much use but not so much for daily use, which I also have to disagree with. I've done a few laps of the country in mine, often doing 10+ hours at a time, sometimes with a passenger, and consider it to be the most comfortable car I've owned. It's great as a daily driver, a grand tourer, and from what I hear, great on a track.
    7. I agree that batteries are where we're headed, and making them smaller and lighter is going to be a priority. However, if you can save a few hundred pounds with a carbon chassis, why wouldn't you? BMW has done this with the i3 and i8. Every bit of weight loss is a good thing. The twin turbo Supra I had back in the day advertised its hollow fiber carpets that saved something like one pound, so I think saving a few hundred while adding stiffness and strength is a win-win-win. Ultimately, there's really nothing on the list of carbon cars I wouldn't want: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carbon_fiber_monocoque_cars.
     
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  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Here's what happens when a car (Aventador) that uses a carbon tube gets wrecked:

     
  14. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    There is a history of carbon fiber race car chassis becoming delaminated. Road cars arent quite old enough yet to suffer the issues. Although, F40s do require some repair and maintinence.

    Mclarens offerings are similar in price, however the parts that are bolted to that chassis are clearly less refined and robust as the maintence issues on a mclaren are rather staggering. (I have owned a 12c with about 70k in repairs). So... they put a considerable amount into the chassis... and the rest is left

    So the 12c has a WONDERFUL suspension and that is why that car rides so well. Not due to the carbon chassis. And there is nothing wrong with that. Thats not intended as an excuse. I agree the mclaren rides beautifully, but its because of a great suspension not because it has a carbon tub.
     
  15. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Plenty of wrecked steel and aluminum Ferrari's with the same result.
     
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Actually, I do not agree at all.

    The point of my post was the Aventador uses a carbon tub for the passenger compartment that is specifically designed to come apart at specific break away points, so, even in a moderate accident (this was a relatively low speed incident) the car completely breaks apart (i.e. for safety)

    Please refer to this link for a more thorough review of this specific incident.

    https://www.core77.com/posts/25612/Lamborghinis-are-Designed-to-Split-in-Half-in-Event-of-a-Crash-Were-Not-So-Sure

    and:

    https://media.lamborghini.com/english/latest-news/lamborghini-aventador-lp-700-4-carbon-fiber-monocoque-on-display-at-the-european-patent-office-in-mu/s/ce74a8f2-99fe-4bc8-9846-cbe7a2c59713

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/lamborghini-aventador-split-in-half-waiting-inside-a-service-is-not-that-sad-100503.html


    These photos show exactly the benefit and the shortcomings of a carbon fiber monocoque construction. On the downside, if you crash a carbon-tub car at anything resembling high speed the thing is going to disintegrate and break beyond any sort of repair. On the upside, the tub itself is so rigid and strong that even a crash of this magnitude does not affect its integrity. So yes, the owner of this Lamborghini Aventador SV may have lost half a million dollars in about a few seconds, but he can take solace in the fact that the expensive technology has saved his life.
    from this link:
    https://www.motorward.com/2016/11/highway-crash-leaves-lamborghini-aventador-sv-in-bits/

    and

    https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/sixth-element-lamborghini-accelerates-cfrp

    ===

    and

    early McLaren models' carbon tub was NOT for safety, just lightness:

    https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/f1-inspired-monocell-racing-safety-for-the-road(3)

    so, not so great, expensive McLaren P1 has a better tub, made for safety:

    https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1103795_mclaren-developing-next-generation-carbon-tub-and-powertrain

    The 720s (and probably others, I did not search further) is a little better, but due to the nature of doors taking half the roof, still not great for passenger safey vis-a-vis the Aventador:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    https://cars.mclaren.com/super-series/720s
     
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  17. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    The CF tub argument is about the same as the carbon brakes argument. They’re sales tools. Both have benefits and draw backs.
     
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  18. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Understand your point now that you made it :D

    My initial take on your video was that breaking in half was limited to carbon tub vehicles.
     
  19. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Do not count of Ferrari "to do the right thing" as far as protecting their customers lives using CF.
    As Enzo once said; build one less of them than demand.
    Demand far outstrips supply so why change other than moral reasons ? What's the ROI on morals these days ?
    Sell rich novices 800HP aluminum cars right until a lawsuit changes their minds.
     
  20. Jas

    Jas Formula 3

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    A fair amount of misinformation in this thread from some being overly defensive about Ferrari's use of aluminium. Remember that even Ferrari use CF for their hypercars.

    Secondly, the ride is NOT harsh in a carbon car. I have 3 such cars. I've also concluded that I will most likely only buy CF cars in future, having seen the benefits in weight and stiffness. You can feel it in the steering. It is a fantastic material to make cars' structural cells from.

    The reason Ferrari are not using CF more widely are simple:
    1/ they are heavily invested in aluminium, and
    2/ the badge means many will buy the cars irrespective of performance
    3/ greater profits (lower cost)
    4/ their production volumes are perhaps too high to produce even half their range in CF
     
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  21. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    I'm okay with aluminum chassis in street cars, but I would really prefer a high end exotic to have a full dry carbon body. The only reason is to make it dent proof when taking it out and not having to worry about parking next to others. Throw on PPF and ceramic coating and you're good to go.
     
  22. Jas

    Jas Formula 3

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  23. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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  24. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for posting, but, honestly, the overhead picture doesn't seem to indicate other than they went straight off and had a more or less soft stop, didn't hit a tree or roll (top down, no roof to help it is quite likely a roll would of resulted in something penetrating the cabin space from top side), not sure how the carbon tub in this case made any real difference at all.

    here are some more:

    https://www.motor1.com/mclaren/news/category/crashes-wrecks/


    Found this interesting:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/mar/22/carbon-fibre-wonder-material-dirty-secret
     
  25. Jas

    Jas Formula 3

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    No one is justifying that muppet's driving. Equally, you don't only have a crash if racing.

    Videos of crashes and damage? The point being?

    The Guardian's article picked on the wrong company. BMW's Leipzig plant is extremely "green". To the point that it is surrounded by wildlife, plants and bees that were not there prior to the plant. It uses only green energy. Their carbon fibre is produced in the USA, using hydro power. And BMW already do recycle their carbon fibre offcuts. I've been to the plant twice.

    Very poor journalism.
     

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