Help Please! - My Testarossa starts for about a second then stops

Hi Steve,
For the throttle micro switch there are 2 versions,
one 121517..for US and CH ,
the other.. 131403..for B1 and CAT,
which one is for mine i. e F113b engine.

The CSI are working now, and during start I can hear a cough or 2, tried with cold start Injector on not firing. I can smell fuel from exhaust, unplug CSI, crank it.. no luck.
Appreciate if you can look at my test below on both ecu.

Test 3 and 4, not so good for tps, do you know if the engine can start with wacky tps?

Also test no. 7, voltage from coil 1 to 6 and 7to12 are low to ecu, any problem with this?

For the starter solenoid output, during cranking is battery voltage, if it start does it maintain this voltage if alternator is kaput.?
If alternator is Good, during g engine running, would this be alternator current?
1. Pin 10 n 12, L.. 34.8 ohm, R.. 54.7 ohm should be 20 ohm.
2. 2 n 21, L... 1.8 kohm, R.. 1.95 kohm.
3. 1n 13, close.. L.. 30 OHM, R... 30 OHM, SHOULD BE ZERO OHM, OPEN... LIKE.. L & R.. INFINITY, SHOULD BE 140 OHM.
Above not so good.
4. 1 N 5...CLOSE... L&R INFINITY, SHOULD BE INFINITY, AND OPEN L & R.. INFINITY, should be zero. This also not so good.
6. 2 & 24... L...11volt, R.. 11v, good.
7. 2 & 25..L 0.03 v, R.. 0.04 v, should be 0.2 to 4 volt, mine is low, any problem with this?
8. 1 n 2..both LR.. 11v, cranking, zero no cranking, good.
9. 14 n 18...both LR , 8 v, good
11. 14 n17, both LR.. 0 close open 8 v, good.
12. 10 n 12.. L.. 2190mv, R.. 2220 mv, should be 1500 to 2500mv, good.
13. 10 n 12, L.. 3120mv, R.. 2220mv, should be 1500 to 2500mv, good.
14. 10 n 12, 160mv, R. 170mv, should be 160 to 230mv, good.
15. 10 n 12, L. 280mv, R.. 290mv, should be 330 to 370, OK ish
16...10 n 12...L..1084mv, R..1840mv, should be 330 to 1500 mv, good.

 

Reman -- I'm going to break my response into several messages (as there's a risk for losing a huge response to computer/internet glitches).

This is similar to the SPC version confusion that I mentioned earlier. Unsure if "B1" includes the earlier F113A (K-Jet) and the F113B (KE-Jet without Lambda); however, they both use the throttle body with a fitting for the Vacuum Limiting Valve which is different than the US throttle body -- so my guess is that 131403 is correct for your TR. The Bosch PNs are:

131403 = Bosch 0280120312

121517 = Bosch 0280012310

What is mounted on your TR now (the Bosch PN should be molded on its outer case)?[/QUOTE]

 

It's normal for the battery voltage to "droop" severely when the starter motor is actually drawing ~200A - even ~10V would be normal.
If the alternator was good = the battery voltage would be ~10V during starter motor cranking, and then go up to ~14V when the engine is running.
If the alternator was bad = the battery voltage would be ~10V during starter motor cranking, and then go up to 11~12V when the engine is running.
Unless a very unusual alternator problem (like one that would cause a fire ), a bad alternator shouldn't prevent the engine from running as long as the battery is charged up to a reasonable level.

 

Not good. Make sure that you are measuring this in the harness connector when unplugged from the injection ECU. If still bad, I'd suggest that you unplug the EHAs and measure the resistance between the two round pins on the EHA itself. If still not closer to 20 Ohms = you'll need new EHAs.

Good, if the engine was at a temperature of ~25 deg C.

This is where Diagnosis Sheet Nr. 5 for your F113B would be different than Diagnosis Sheet Nr. 6 for the US F113A040. The 140 Ohms occurs on a US TR when the engine is cold because of the air injection system. On your F113B, (I believe) it should be 0 Ohms with the throttle closed and infinite Ohms with the throttle opened whether cold or warm. However, it doesn't have to be literally 0 Ohms, and a few Ohms resistance in the idle switch contacts would certainly be OK. 30 Ohms is maybe a little highish (or maybe the different throttle microswitch has a built-in internal resistor). You should try unplugging/reseating the throttle microswitch to wipe the connector contacts to see if it reduces the resistance. You could also use a jumper wire in the throttle microswitch harness connector to connect the R (red) wire to the MB (brown/white) wire to simulate a closed throttle microswitch and then remeasure the 1 n 13 resistance at the injection ECU to confirm it is closer to 0 ohms, and you could even try starting with the jumper in place. This signal is also sent to the ignition ECU and (I believe) alters the ignition timing to make starting easier.

Yes, not good if it stays infinite Ohms at near WOT, but this will have no impact on starting or normal running. Again, you should try unplugging/reseating the throttle microswitch to wipe the connector contacts to see if it changes the resistance at near WOT.

 

I'm unsure about this. IMO, there was a misprint on this test showing pin 21 (which is part of the NTC thermister). I guessed that it was supposed to be pin 25, but even that isn't directly related to the "K terminal of coil 1-6 " as described in the test text. Since you've confirmed that you have spark during starter motor cranking that seems good. (I've never made this measurement.)

Did you make a cut-n-paste typo here? This test should have a result of "Increasing until exceeding 3000mV, then decreasing slowly to the value of step 12" -- so the L result looks good for an initial increasing result, but the R result seems to be a repeat of the test 12 value? As a side note, they made a typo in the correct value for this test on the English language page (300mV), but, in the other languages, they show the correct value of 3000mV.

IMO, your passing tests 12-16 is a good sign that your injection ECUs are OK as supplying different voltages to the EHA for different conditions is their main function. Your EHA internal coil resistances being wacky (not close to 20 Ohms) is the most serious item to correct/investigate.

 

Thank you Steve. Yes I am aware about voltage drop during starting. What I believe this is the case for terminal 30 at the starter going to ecu via gr wire to pin no 1 via protection relay. What I am referring to, is the output of terminal 15 at the starter, I so not see it is link to the alternator. What I don't know, if the voltage at terminal 15 or blue white wire remain 12 v when the engine run or simply drop back to 0. Just simply goes to 12v during cranking only. I never measured them when it was running g before.

 

The voltage on terminal 15a of the starter solenoid should be +12V (the battery voltage) only during starter motor cranking (key Pos III). It will be 0V when the engine is running (key Pos II)

 

If I think to make sense of it, terminal 15 must drop to zero volts otherwise blue white wire feeding the orange wire of csi would activate csi all the time during engine running until ground of thermo switch cut off.

 

Yes Tq. That's what I thought.

 

Yes, typo error, test 13 should be L.. 3120mv, R.. 3000mv

 

I di

I did a retest between 2 n 25, cranking from 0.02 v to 0.06 peak 1.1v, so not too bad.

Remeasured eha 10 n 12 resistance 26 ohm, getting better.

Tps, 1 n 13, closes 0.6 ohm open infinite.
Tps 1 n 5, close infinite, open 190 ohm, couple of times, then it went to 6000 ohm most of the time open.

Tried to restart, just strong burb, I am not sure If burb or cough is the right description, but sound like soft detonation. Or maybe mini explosion. Sound like too much fuel left in the exhaust and detonated, I am. Not sure.
Tried again many times, nothing but with strong smell from exhaust.

This really blowing my head.
Can it be weak spark, but I replaced both Coil and new module, distributors, all timing leads, rotors, tdc and crank sensor. . I have not verified with timing light as I don't have it, this simply using old school method, putting the spark plug and put them on the intake, verified all the 12 sparks.

What else could this be?
Sorry Steve I am just passing dilemma.

 

Don't have much more to add.

Spark -- Your test seems good, but a timing light would also allow you to confirm that the #1 spark plug is firing at the right time during starter motor cranking.

Fuel -- Have you measured the regulated fuel pressure on each bank? Fuel will squirt out of the CSIs almost regardless of the fuel pressure, but the fuel distributor needs the full 5~5.6 bar pressure to work well. Since the two banks have independent fuel systems, it would be much more likely to have a failure on only one bank (and still run on the other bank), but this would be the first basic check. The more detailed check would be to do the "Dixie Cup" test on all six injectors at the same time in each bank and measure the volume of fuel leaving each injector for a given time and airflow plate position (equivalent to the Rotometer test shown in the TR WSM). Any chance that you could've got some fuel contaminated with water? (If so, I believe the fuel distributors would have to be disassembled and cleaned as they will not self-clear water contamination.)

 

Apart from checking my timing belt at tdc, they are align. But did not check with timing light, but the above already confirm they are firing at the right time.
Also can't really do timing light with engine not running at all.

I have not done the pressure yet. But many years ago I did check the volume on all Injectors cranking it for certain time and Check all the volume are the same. But last year i changed all the injectors and clean the 2 distributors as well. After all that it ran great for many months then I found out the right injector plunger was stuck due to I believed wrong o ring at eha, not fuel proof. I changed it and cleaned the distributor again and it ran great again until this all of a sudden this nightmare come up.
Do you ever experience with weak sparks or with partial spark ecu failure.
I even checked the old Coil were still good, primary n secondary, not sure of the black module though, but I changed them with new one anywhere.

I drained all the fuel and used them in different car with no issues, looking at the fuel all clean and no visible water content.

 

No, no experience with that.

 

Hi Steve,
How are you? It has been a while. I found out the no start issue check compression, I only had 1 cylinders having good compression. I put it atf oil in the cylinder, then improved to 6 cylinders having compression. Managed to start the car for 30 munites, then one of my valve, s head came off and hit piston. Took the engine out and Opened up the cylinder heads most valves on left ha D side stuck opened, that is why I don't have compression on most cylinders. The valves semwd to have gummed up. One of my cylinder liner scored badly, and one piston broke. And more bad news, left cylinder also cracked. Tried to find everywhere for good left cylinder head, no luck. Do you have this that I can buy from you.. Also wondered, if 512tr engine can fit onto testarossa frame? Do you know, if the engine mount locations are the same? I am thinking of getting 512 tr complete with gearbox, wiring, coils apart from using same testarossa frame and drive shaft as well as testarossa brake disk and wheels. So you know if this is possible sir?

 

I mean complete 512 tr engine with gearbox, wiring.
Only think I am concern about is using the same testarossa frame whether this fit or not?
Also I am using the original testarossa fuel pump and in and out, using 512 tr fuel regulators. Other thing, any power loss or negative consequence of removing air pump assembly, just cap off the pipe vent at cylinder head?

 

No (I'm not a F part source, but many are).

I know that Paul Newman has put a 512M engine into a testarossa, but don't think that it's just a simple bolt-in (although I didn't reread this whole thread):

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/512m-engine-in-a-testarossa.388338/

Paul is the one you should contact and/or search (his FChat member name is NEWMAN) about this issue. IIRC, he's done several various 12-cyl engine swaps into TR and BB512 chassis.

No, there's no performance penalty for doing this (nor any warm-running power gain). The only negative consequence might be reducing the useful life of the pre-cats and/or cats if so equipped.

 

Hi Steve, sorry mate to bother you. I have all the tread on Paul Newman, however there are no details on wiring, he is too advance for me. Just wondering how's the testarossa 1990, wiring such as from where that feedback to tachometer in the dashboard, also the temperature sensor, oil pressure sensor fuel quantity, warning lights, oil temp, via which connector goes to dashboard. Does it go direct to instrument dashboard or does it go via fuse box?
Do you have wiring for 512tr? I wonder if it is the same layout like testarossa for instrument dashboard feedback..

 

Steve, do you have the wire designation and colors for bottom connector that go to back of rear seats where the 2 engine ecus are, then go to the engine connectors.

 

What version 1990 TR -- US (F113A040) or euro (F113B)? I can give you a Dropbox link to pdf scan for either wiring diagram book.

No, not really. All I have is the schematics in the 512TR WSM (and the 512TR WSM pdf file is too big to put into my Dropbox account). You are also going to be hugely disappointed as the 512TR schematics have lost much of the implied component placement information, and are generally a huge PITA to use. You can probably get a pdf copy of the 512TR WSM for $30~$50 on the web, but I'd worry about how, or even if, the schematics were scanned. (They are on huge fold-out pages -- in my pdf copy each schematic is broken into 4 separate scanned pages, and all at different scales, so they are basically unusable unless you print each one out, at the perfect rescale, and tape them together. This is such a huge hassle that I have only done this for Figs 1, 2, and 3 for myself.)

 

Testarossa 1990 f113b euro. I think I have this one. But not 512tr. Can I just try to see your version sir. When I try to digest Newman tread, wow, great conversion, but I can't follow, there are no details. He removed the wiring on old testarossa engine and started to transfer to new engine for starter, instruments, aircon etc, I believed if I looked at wiring diagram interface with the connector at the left hand side under coolant. C11, may be not sure. The rest efi and ignition unit are stand alone non oem unit. Can I just see your 512tr version Sir, I think I can find a way to work that out especially if I know the wire connector at the bottom of fuse box that go to back of the seat, ecu units are, then back to the engine harness.

 

Also if I looked at the picture, the tdc and speed sensors were removed also noticed 512 tr engine, there looked like 2 crank sensor at the front. For testarossa f113b, how the rpm tachometer gauge is driven, is it from the left Coil or from crank sensor. How is that wiring go and where from? Via which connector,?

 

Looking at the drawing, speed sensor goes to ignition ecu, pin 16 n 3, then out pin 24 via c7 to tacho. Wonder what interface direct or some kind of electronic device connecting pin24? Looks like 16 n 3, signal for ignition,, is it amplified or directly connected to pin 24 in ignition ecu?? ?

 

These links should get you the pdf copies of Vol 1 and Vol 2 of the 512TR WSM that I have:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rlu7xdh95888yq5/Workshop%20Manual%20512%20TR%20Vol%201.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6ulpclu1dfsmdi/Workshop%20Manual%20512%20TR%20Vol%202.pdf?dl=0

And this link is for the missing page L32 to decode what's what:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/82zzgrsoyg98pfi/512TR%20wiring%20diagram%20page%20L32%20descriptions.pdf?dl=0

 

I've never examined the signal sent from the MicroPlex ignition ECU to the TR tachometer, but my guess would be that it is not a simple "pass-thru" of the flywheel RPM sensor signal -- but just a guess...