I agree. I have done lift/afs on my 458 and 812 and it has definitely saved scraping the bottom of the front nose numerous times. I ordered it on my pista, which I can only guess needs it even more for street use.
My cheap F8 without lifter will have the same performance as a Pista loaded with a useless lifter thanks to the weight saving Now if the Pista is used just as a museum piece to display the status of its owner, it better be protected by a lifter for the rare occasions it will risk leaving its storage...
In what way Ray ? The only savage and true element in this whole discussion is that the decision not to get one is usually based upon being a tight ass. There is no reference material anywhere to show or state there is any performance penalty for having the lifter either and, the so called weight penalty being claimed - also not quantified - probably amounts to a carrying a packet of biscuits and a drink in your car at best. Laughable and even more-so given it's a 720hp car. The only logical decision for not getting the lifter would be based upon the car being purchased as a garage queen which barely sees the light of day beyond the odd cars and coffee meet - which is just a pose fest anyway. I'm afraid that's the score here gents! The rest is just semantics and macho bravado, in trying to justify a bad decision by not ticking the box. The only penalty which I can see - other than the self imposed usage restrictions - is at sale time when 100 walk away because of it not having a lifter and, then less money having to be taken for the car as a consequence of that situation. So not having the lifter is a lose, lose, situation. That my friend is the cold hard fact here.
That's not entirely correct. It's not purely a question of the lifter weight vs. the overall weight of the car, but rather the impact relative to unsprung weight of the suspension itself. In terms of overall weight added to the entire car, sure you are correct - it's negligible. But that's not the score here - not by a long shot. The weight of the lifter collar is located below the spring perch, therefore its weight has to be looked at based on the impact to the unsprung of the front suspension. Aside from just the added complexity, additional weight in this area can tend to increase ride harshness and also reduce suspension responsiveness. I don't know the exact weight in question, so it might not be all that bad for a mostly road going car - but you never know. If anyone knows the weight of the lifter collars, maybe they can chime in. The issue is that you need to consider the added weight as it impacts the unsprung components of the front suspension - namely the wheels, tires, lug nuts, rotors, calipers, etc. - anything below the lower coil-over spring perch. In this regard, adding a cumbersome hydraulic collar might have a much larger percentage impact on unsprung weight than you realize. Moreover, how much HP the motor produces has absolutely zero bearing to anything with this calculation. Anyone that rides a motorcycle can tell you what a critical area unsprung weight is. I can say that on my motorcycle, when I installed carbon fiber wheels - which reduced both rotational mass as well as unsprung weight - it had quite a drastic impact on how well the suspension functioned over bumps, etc. The best analogy I could make is that it felt like the bike had pillows under the wheels and suddenly all the impact of the same bumps in the road were reduced in harshness by approximately 40% to 50%. Fact is, when the unsprung weight of your suspension is lower, your suspension operates better. Is the negative impact as noticeable when you add a lifter to your Ferrari? I don't know... but you are definitely heading the wrong direction by adding weight below the coil over springs. Ray
how much more weight you really think the lifter is? If its a full track car and you want to shave 0.1 then maybe it may make a difference. For street you probably wont feel any difference in the weight
Again without any quantitative data being provided this is all just hot air. The lifting collars sit atop of the strut from what I've been informed and are not part of any "un-sprung" mass equation. Un-sprung weight/mass is associated to the components which sit below the strut - components such as lower control arms, stub axles/bearing carriers, wheels, tires and the likes. The weight of these lifting collars is also now very very minimal these days hence why even Porsche no longer see the need to option the lift out like Ferrari is still doing with a lot of other stuff now standard equip in most cars. As previously stated, without any quantitative data it is illogical to claim any benefit other than a monetary saving which becomes lost at the sale end anyway - and for obvious reasons. PS. And, as an FYI the coils, collar, and other small parts part of the strut unit are held withing the confines of the strut unit which is fixed to the body of the car. It is only the components which sit suspended below the strut unit which become part of any un-sprung mass equation. The ride of the car is also governed by the overall weight of the body along with the rating of the shock and coils.
Was informed the 488 sat above the coil. Will check it out later when i get the time but for all of that w/o the weight and other quantitative data you are most likely talking about the best part of nothing on the basis the unit is contained within the strut unit which is affixed to the body.
Check all you like, it's below the spring. Whoever told you it's above the spring doesn't know what they are talking about. Here's a video from when I was lowering my 458, a while back, by turning down the lower coil-over seats 15mm. As you can see, the spring normally sits on an aluminum threaded perch and there is a lock nut below that. With the suspension lifter, it's all replaced with a hydraulically actuated piston, which raises or lowers the spring relative to the base of the strut. It probably doesn't add enough weight to make all that much difference to the average pista owner. Personally, I'm just not a fan of the added complexity of the lifter, but to each their own. Ray
The lifter also adds an additional hydraulic pump system, as shown below - but probably only 30 to 40 lbs of additional equipment on the car haha (but that's just a guess). Ray Image Unavailable, Please Login
here's a photo of one from an ebay listing... that thing looks kinda heavy. At least it's not unsprung weight haha Ray Image Unavailable, Please Login
here's an older thread where someone suggests that the lift system adds 30 Kg to the car. Yikes! If that's true, 66 lbs, that's quite a bit for any car, let alone a car like the Pista where the focus is all about saving weight any place you can: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/no-lift-kit-deal-breaker.405621/ Pista and a lift just seem like a moronic combo to me. Why not get full electric seats and run flat tires while you're at it? Ray
Ray my friend you just fear mongering without providing any quantitative data whatsoever to support your claim. I would agree it doesn't matter if the collar sits at the top or bottom as you are way off base with your un-sprung weight claim anyway. Insofar as the overall weight suggestion referred to in another earlier thread is again, just pure speculation - forum talk for the unaware - offered without providing any actual data to prove/support the assumed weight quoted. In reality these components would be nowhere near the weight quoted. Firstly the shock/strut assembly is NOT considered an un-sprung weight component. Components in the un-sprung weight equation are the brake assemblies, wheels, tyres, hubs and components situated at the outer extremity of the fulcrum. These are the components which really make a difference where weight/handling and ride is concerned. As I said earlier, this is a money thing for those seeking to save a buck in one hand and give back a hundred in the other. There is no tangible benefit in not having it beyond the fanciful imagination of those who opted to not tick the box - further penalizing themselves in that very process. Here is some reference material to help explain the real situation with regard to your claim, and for any others who have been misled into thinking they are in some way enjoying some intangible form of performance benefit over and those who have the lift. https://www.machinedesign.com/springs/what-are-differences-between-sprung-and-unsprung-weight
Never had a lifter on any of my cars (no need) and have NEVER been 'penalised' come re-sale for not having ticked that box..........
Awesome! PS. Am awaiting the kit price to retrofit the lift which I'm told is VERY costly. It's been put in kit form by Ferrari now to help out those who erred at time of order.
I'd also add that looking at the weight of lifter systems from reputable suppliers, one gets figures between 15 and 20 kg. The Pista is 90 kg less than the 488 GTB, and the F8 is 40 kg less than the 488. So there is only 50 kg between the Pista and F8. When one adds 15 kg to 20 kg to the Pista, the difference is reduced to 30 to 35 kg. If 15 to 20 kg is nothing, 30 to 35 is not much more... That's not my view, and that's the reason I think it's legit to consider the Pista is superior to the F8.
LVP 30 to 35 kg is a LOT more than 15 yo 20. 20 is a LOT more than 15. Looking at the ferrari components and comparing them against similar components in my stockholding, combined I would be VERY surprised if the entire kit weighed in any more than 10kg. Technology has moved a long way forward. Consider this. Pista doesn't have a glovebox and F8 does. Do you seriously believe you or I could feel the difference between a 720hp car with and a car without a glovebox? Or the difference between how each of those cars handled around a corner? This is the level of nitpicking that's being suggested as being discernible by some as tangible benefits. I seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry reading some of the stuff that gets posted on these forums. This lifter is a money thing and that's it...end of story.
I don't really care but I struggle to find any logic here - 10 kg is nothing compared to 0 but 20 is a lot more than 15... As for being a money thing, spending $20K more on a $400K car does not make much difference so I doubt it would be a real reason for not speccing a lifter. I just don't want one on any of my cars
No i'm not saying 10kg is 0kg. But 10 is less than 15 and so on and nobody has any facts on how much the thing even weighs beyond a wild stab in the dark. But on a 720hp car it wouldn't be felt in ANY situation. Driver weight, fuel in tank, these are all variables too. Even tyre brand have weight variances. The no glove box thing is play acting for the macho man fanatic who wouldn't be able to tell anyway....probably weighs in after his morning toilet break before going out to set his fast lap time just so he can tell everyone he has saved weight. . No this whole no lifter toss is a wallet thing or psychologically related in some way. PS Maybe if Ray asks Vettel if he can tell the difference between a car with and without on a hot lap around Fiorano - then he may have something to argue. But I can't see him coming back with anything but a face more red than rosso scuderia!
Oh...it's just 1kg. No one will notice. Oh, it's just another kilo, no one will notice. 5kg, big deal, won't be able to tell. How did this boat get to weigh so much??? Nothing to do with cost for some. Deleted everything I could off mine. Did I save much weight? Probably not. Do I care if the next guy doesn't want it because it has no lift...yeah right. Let me spend 20k for him. Comical.
Is it 20K? I never asked. Anyway I did say it was a "wallet" problem more than a weight problem. So at least I got that part right.
