Enzo Ferrari on the Jaguar E-Type | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Enzo Ferrari on the Jaguar E-Type

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Smiles, Sep 24, 2018.

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  1. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    I apologize, Ed. I’ve misplaced the book.

    I’ll look closer when I find it again. I read it quickly but pretty thoroughly, if only because that was the sole reason I bought the book in the first place.

    I think my October 5 post, #7 above, was accurate in my findings.

    Matt
     
  2. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    And mine’s the English copy.

    Matt
     
  3. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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  4. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

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    Thanks for clarifying, Matt. I've ordered an Italian copy to review next week. Will let you know what I find.

    -Ed
     
  5. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Great. Please do..

    Matt
     
  6. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    I finally found it. Page 166 of the English hardback:

    “When the E Type Jaguar cabriolet came out, he told me he considered it to be the most beautiful car in the world, but then he also told me that he wanted a Rolls-Royce, but could not afford it.”

    Rancati’s own words, not a direct quotation. And pretty much out of any relevant context. The previous paragraph was on Enzo’s desire to be prepared for meetings, the following paragraph on how he still found women interesting.

    Matt
     
  7. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    I’m still in denial though!

    :)

    Matt
     
  8. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

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    Well... all that shows so far is that it's in the English translation. Even if it's also in the Italian, that's pretty weak as evidence goes (and most likely the recent 'recollections' by people who were there in period are probably based on the book's claim as well).

    However, the really interesting thing will be if it's *not* in the Italian original. Watch this space.

    -Ed
     
  9. Lowell

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    This is indeed on page 166 of Gino Rancate, of the English language hard bound book "Enzo Ferrari the Man" published by Haynes in 1988.

    The previous book, in Italian, was Gino Rancati, Ferrari, Lui published by Sonzogno in a paper back book in 1977.
    Towards the bottom of of the last paragraph on page 164 appears

    "Quando esce la Jaguar E Type cabriolet mi dice che la considera la piu bella automobile del mondo, e anche che
    vorrebbe possedere una Roll Royce ma non puo permettersela."

    Admittedly not knowing much Italian, it looks to me that the English and Italian sentences say the same thing.
     
  10. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Thank you for that.

    So Again it’s Rancati’s loose recollection and not a direct quote. It sounds rather glib and not too serious, especially when the line about wanting a Rolls-Royce if he could only afford it is in the same sentence.

    It’s also interesting that it’s only in Rancati’s book, and doesn’t appear anywhere else. No other biographers, and no other contemporary sources.

    Matt
     
  11. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    And the cabriolet?

    Surely the fixed head coupe is more beautiful!

    Matt
     
  12. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Well, if he said that about the OTS (and I for one have no reason to doubt Mr. Rancati's recollection), just imagine how effusive he would have been if he had seen the FHC!! :D
     
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  13. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    If only Enzo Ferrari could have afforded one!

    :)

    Matt
     
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  14. mcimino

    mcimino Formula 3

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    Came across this... according to Norman Dewis, Enzo was speaking to him at the Geneva auto show in 1961 when he made comments about the XKE. Go to the 52.24 time mark.
     
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  15. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    The most beautiful is the hard top roadster. No question.
     
  16. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

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    A bit of a bump but the question came up in the comments on the latest Petrolicious video on an E Type. Is there any evidence Enzo Ferrari was at the Geneva motor show as I thought he didn't like to travel and extremely rarely travelled abroad?
     
  17. torquespeak

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    #42 torquespeak, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
    I think we've established that there was every chance it was just a vague recollection by Rancati, and perhaps he only said that it was beautiful, or perhaps he said nothing at all.

    As much as we can rightly hold up Dewis as a hero, his line about Enzo speaking to him at the motor show is nonsense. Enzo did not converse in English, and Dewis did not speak Italian. It's either a genuine lapse in memory from Norman and he's mixing it up with another person, or it's a fabricated anecdote that came about after the widely publicised 'quote' (which we've traced back to Rancati).

    -Ed
     
  18. johnaz

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  19. johnaz

    johnaz Formula Junior

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    E type FHC has just over 20,000 original miles, original paint/interior, even carpets. 365 GTC4 just over 3800 original miles, original paint/interior, etc.
    John
     
  20. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    I watched that video - they guy didn't look as though he ever went over 30 mph!!!

    I have solid evidence. A guy I met in the pub heard it from his second cousin whose grandfather's friend saw it in a review of the 1961 Geneva Motor Show in a copy of Pigbreeder monthly he read in his dentist's waiting room.:D
     
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  21. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    Hi,

    If anyone cares I can dig up my notes from ca 2015 when I inerviewed a person who was there in Geneva, the now late Norman Dewis (OBE).

    In short the reason this came up was that on 2011 the E-type turned 50 years and there were many events and articles celebrating that.

    Some facts for the denialists:

    The E-type on the Jaguar stand was a coupe #885005.

    Two other E-types were outside the halls for demonstration drives, a coupe reg. 9600 HP #885002 and a roadster reg. 77 RW #850003 both with temporary Swiss plates for the demo rides.

    Norman Dewis told me Enzo cane to the Jaguar stand together with two other people and made some comments (and jokes).

    He spoke Italian, not English. Yes Norman could speak some Italian, he had done the Mille Miglia with late Sir Stirling Moss on a C-type and earned the nick-name “Pancho” because if his hat.

    I can try to find the exact words Norman used if you like.


    Cheers!
     
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  22. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    #48 Fennicus, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
    Hi,

    Ok, jokes aside, I can give you the short version in here, all the data on the cars and most of the people involved have been checked, who was there, who wasn't there for sure etc.

    I personally interviewed Norman Dewis a few times and made notes. I was thinking of recording it with my phone, be being a mere. 49 years younger than Norman (was) I chickened out as I though I might have been too nosy or impolite, so I just wrote stuff down on paper.

    I had also bought his autobiography from Paul Skilleter's stand at the event where Norman was giving autographs and talking with enthusiasts, plus a cut-out drawing of a LWT E-type and he kindly signed both of this items very nicely for me.

    I had seen him many many time before, but did not talk with him, as I was shy and there was no real cause, but possibly thanks to the Champagne in Gstaad / Saanen in Switzerland in June 2011 at the E-type celebrations of the Swiss Jaguar club (www.jdcs.ch) and E-type club I did present myself to him and made a few jokes and asked him about some E-type stuff I had always wanted to know. It was very pleasant and despite the fact that he was already 90 years old, he seemed to have very vivid memories of those days, after all if must have been very exciting, all the stuff he was a part of.

    So here's a link to an old thread on another forum, where this was debated deeply.

    https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/e-type-most-beautiful-car/118622/47

    The idea was to find answers to there questions, or to find out if the denialists had any valid points:

    Who were there?

    Who spoke which languages?

    What was said and according to whom?

    So I made a list of questions and asked him those:

    * Did he (Norman) speak Italian? Yes! He said not fluently, but he said he could speak and understand Italian.

    * Did Enzo speak English? Apparently he could and did understand English, at least to some degree, but chose not to do so, at least in Geneva in 1961. Norman said to me that he came along to the Jaguar stand before the show was open together with two other people that Norman did not know and could not remember if they were introduced.

    * Norman told me that Enzo walked to the Jaguar stand and greeted them in Italian. According to Norman he had said something that was like this in English:

    "Congratulations! What a truly beautiful car, it must be the most beautiful car in the world! But you know, it has one fault? It does not have a Ferrari badge on it! :) "

    IMHO that goes together well with March 1961 besides didn't the problems and personnel changes occur first in November 1961?
    And the company had gone public in 1960 so all was good, production was higher than ever etc.

    Enzo Ferrari (b.1898) and Sir. William Lyons (b. 1901) were about the same age and surely must have known each other to some degree, so why not say hi to each other if you happen to be at the same venue?

    And these facts I did not need to ask, there are photos and articles and factory documentation to back all this up:

    1. The car on the Jaguar stand was this one: http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=885005

    A LHD E-type FHC 3.8L in Opalescent Gunmetal / Beige
    It remained in Switzerland and a Swiss expert has restored it, there is a PDF in German with period photos too.
    "An artical, written in German, about the restoration of this car being restored in Switzerland is on line at
    www.jaguarclassic.ch/pdf/Jaguar-Tribune-885005.pdf "

    2. That was also the same car that had been unveiled for the press the night before the launch of the Geneva Show itself at the Hôtel du Parc des Eaux-Vives in Geneva.

    https://parc-des-eaux-vives-geneva.hotels-geneva.org/en/

    A period photo from there that night:

    http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=576633

    The only person I can recognize in that photo is Sir William Lyons smiling right behind #885005. I would think most other people would be motoring journalists and other guests invited to the launch event.

    Even the Jaguar Heritage Trust have accidentally used photos from the French launch in Monaco where you can see Rainier and Grace (Kelly) and have quoted that those photos are form Geneve, but it's easy to see that #885005 had a beige interior where #885002 had a Black interior. Also the New York show photos are mirrored so the car looks like it would be RHD when it was of course LHD.

    3. Outside the show in Geneva they had two cars for demonstrations runs given my Norman Dewis and Bob Berry and possibly some other people form the Jaguar team. (as also documented with photos)

    A RHD roadster, E-type OTS 3.8L #850003 http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=850003 British Racing Green / Suede Green UK reg. "RW 77"

    And a LHD (later converted to RHD) E-type FHC 3.8L in Opalescent Gunmetal / Black UK reg. "9600 HP" #885002 http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=885002

    So IF Enzo was there, like Norman personally told me he was, then the car he saw on the Jaguar stand was this one:
    http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=885005. LHD E-type FHC 3.8L in Opalescent Gunmetal / Beige

    I have somewhere also photos of the Jaguar stand, but of course not with Enzo, but at least with Sir. William Lyons and Jaguar chief engineer William (Bill) Haynes. And IIRC also Claude Baily (whom no-one seems to remember.) They all three had gone to good schools and they all could speak French to some degree.

    You can easily get the wrong idea even today for the official Jaguar website in that there would have been only one coupe the Bob berry had just driven there. He did drive #885002 there, and it was the car in the photos outside in the park, when #885005 had been transported on a truck from Browns Lane in good time.
    https://www.jaguar.gi/about-jaguar/jaguar-stories/e-type-turning-a-million-heads.html

    You can see there difference form those photos easily as #885002 has a Black interior and #885005 has a Beige interior.

    Oh and the gentleman behind the steering wheel of that RHD roadster #850003 with temporary Geneva plates "GE 67163" and standing next to it be the driver's door is Norman Dewis (OBE).

    Here's one more photo online, form the Geneva show floor March 1961.

    http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=576631

    Incidentally #885005 was for sale last year. I have no idea if it was sold or not.

    Again I can only recognize William Lyons and Bill Heynes from that photo. Anyone else?

    Best wishes and a Happy Easter to everyone!
     
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  23. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    Hi all,

    And sorry if I have taken too much of your bandwidth in these difficult times, for me it would be perfectly ok for the mods to move this thread to the "Other cars - British" section for sure as there is no Ferrari content really.

    Take care!
     
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  24. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    #50 Bluebottle, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
    Not at all - that was most interesting. And I for one should not for one minute doubt Norman's word.

    Confirms my opinion that Enzo was speaking of the FHC when he made his comment about the E-type being the most beautiful car in the world!:)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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