A Ferrari feature that makes me scream with anger | FerrariChat

A Ferrari feature that makes me scream with anger

Discussion in '360/430' started by albkid, May 14, 2019.

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  1. albkid

    albkid Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2016
    318
    Full Name:
    Jim
    My latest project has been to upgrade the so-called "Hi-Fi stereo system" in my 360.

    I removed the door cards to replace the mid-range drivers because the rubber surrounds had disintegrated.. I decided to renew the leather of the arm rest and triangular accent piece at the top front of the card.

    As I removed the hardware that fastened these pieces to the card, I observed corrosion of the hardware. On the arm rest, it was the studs. On the triangular leather piece, it was the nuts embedded in the hard plastic backing to which the leather was glued. After a light sanding of the mating surfaces, I discovered that the embedded nuts were made of brass. The bolts that were screwed into these nuts appear to be galvanized steel. So, sixteen years of galvanic corrosion has taken place.

    In my work in the engine compartment, I have replaced various fasteners -- screws, washers, and nuts -- because of galvanic corrosion. One of the more noteworthy finds was a galvanized bolt with a nickel-plated or stainless washer that was attached to a aluminum cross member.The washer had turned black over the years.

    What the hell goes on in Maranello? Am I to assume that no thought whatsoever was given to the ever-present possibility of galvanic corrosion?

    What I have found over the years is utterly ridiculous. How difficult is it to pair a galvanized steel nut with a galvanized screw?

    I now have three shoe boxes with new fasteners to replace those I routinely find have corroded.

    I do not need anyone to tell me that often what line factory workers use to put things together is often based in what is in the warehouse. Of course, that is no excuse.

    Ad hominem attack.
    I can just imagine that Ferrari's purchasing managers are so drunk from their daily wine ration that they do not give a damn how things are fastened together.

    I hope they read this.
     
    I'm 360 Canuck likes this.
  2. APA#1

    APA#1 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,311
    Central Florida
    I would think that all car manufacturers think about is the warranty period, after that..meh. Sticky buttons are a case in point.

    Feel your pain.
     
  3. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Curt
    Any steel part that makes contact with aluminum is going to cause corrosion. The steel studs on the engine block.. corroding from day 1. The real question is does it really matter? Only Ferrari owners will be so OCD...

    Of all the things that Maranello can do better... using steel screws and washers on an aluminum body car is the last thing I'd have them change. It's a car.
     
  4. albkid

    albkid Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2016
    318
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    Jim
    Thank you.

    I owned a couple of Acura NSX's which are aluminum body vehicles. The service manual specifies that a special, green-coated fastener is used for fastening to aluminum.. If such a fastener is removed, it is replaced with a new one.

    So, at least Acura knows how to do it right.
     
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  5. GH13

    GH13 Karting

    Apr 26, 2019
    73
    I once rented a house built in the late 70s in which dissimilar metals in the plumbing lead to four pipes leaking or bursting in less than a year.

    I politely declined to purchase the property from the owner when given the opportunity. In retrospect, that may have been a financial mistake, but at least I dodged having to worry about having to deal with that sort of thing on my own dime.
     
  6. Hocakes

    Hocakes Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2010
    451
    FL
    Dacro

     
  7. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Veteran
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    Jul 8, 2016
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    Ferrari hardware blows, but in my experience, so does every other car's. Honda has a lot more resources than Ferrari does. When I redid my interior, I bought all new hardware from Ricambi because it was all scratched and ugly, some rusted. It's amazing how something so small and cheap affects the look....purely cosmetic at that point, but the only time that this really bothered me is when I was doing my exhaust. That crap was so nasty and rusted and I sure as hell wasn't going to ruse it with my shiny new cats. Even bent it taking it off, surprised it didn't snap. I probably dropped $100 at the local Ace Hardware getting all stainless steel nuts, bolts,and washers and replaced every piece of hardware throughout my exhaust system, even a new mount as mine had been welded together and Ricambi had them on closeout. Here's what I took out, then what I put in.
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  8. APA#1

    APA#1 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,311
    Central Florida
    I buy a lot of SS bolts, nuts, screws etc from boltdepot.com, you can buy 1 or hundreds.
     
    whatheheck likes this.
  9. JLF

    JLF Formula 3
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    Sep 8, 2009
    1,635
    Thanks.
     
  10. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3

    Jun 20, 2017
    1,677
    Melbourne Florida
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    KGC
    I totally get the frustration. I too have a low tolerance for things "not done right". I build cars for a living and I am very mindful of such things. Even new stainless bolts and nuts can become fused together over time once tightened to spec (I always use a touch of Never-Seize). I get angry with engineers that make a ton of money that should know better and bean counters that nix such considerations-- Especially on a car like a Ferrari.

    My last Porsche 911 had an A/C failure. Turns out a steel clamp on the aluminum return line rotted a hole in the line due to cathodic reaction. The car had only 38K on it. A simple rubber gasket wrapped clamp could have solved that for a handful of pennies. Shame on Porsche too.

    For me, your rant is justified.

    You may want to check Fastenal. They have all kinds of specialty hardware.
     
    f355spider likes this.
  11. albkid

    albkid Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2016
    318
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    Jim
    I have a vendor in the UK that I get specialty hardware, particular with torx heads that I like to use.

    I submit I have no Ferrari OCD. This issue is not about me, but what Ferrari does in building its cars. I can assure you that if you consult with any experienced mechanic, he will relate his horror stories in trying to remove a frozen screw or bolt caused by galvanic corrosion or simply rust in the case of steel hardware.

    When galvanic corrosion takes place it often locks a screw to a nut. Repeated effort with a screw driver risks caming out the screw head to such a degree that it becomes useless. At this point, a commonly used technique is to drill a pilot hole and employ a screw extractor . However, this is nearly impossible to do with small screws. What should have taken seconds now stretches into hours as a mechanic tries one technique after another to extract the screw. Sometimes, he is left to destroying more than just the screw. The end result is wasted time and money.

    If Ferrari took a minimal amount of care in the selection of fasteners, it would cause maintenance of their vehicles to be a lot less troublesome, and possibly more enjoyable..
     
    I'm 360 Canuck likes this.
  12. MJGinTX

    MJGinTX Karting

    Mar 30, 2019
    157
    Noblesville, IN
    I also totally agree. For the type of amazing brand that Ferrari is - you would expect that level of attention to detail.

    I have recently ordered all new stainless bolts, washers, etc for the under trays. I need to take them off anyway - so why not replace the corroded parts? I shouldn’t have to do that...but nonetheless.
     
  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Oh when I had my 928 the only question I'd have is "how much time will I need to replace xxxxx". Every. Single. Nut. On the car would snap the bolt or round when I tried to remove it.

    On my 360 I don't get it. I haven't had the corrosion that you speak of. All of the fasteners on my car in the cabin look like new. And mine is a 99. Which leads me to wonder if the engineers are as incorrect as you allude... The engine bay with its environmental exposure.. sure I've seen some electrolytic corrosion. But it's been minimal even compared to my much newer Porsches. Even the grounds on the side of the engine bay were free of corrosion. It makes me wonder not if the Ferrari engineers were cheap, but what kind of life your car has lived. If it's been parked in a garage at the beach or outside.. Even the NSX is going to have bubbling from Aluminum.
     
  14. JazzyJay

    JazzyJay Formula Junior

    Oct 26, 2005
    367
    Connecticut
    I agree with albkid. There is NO REASON to mismatch the types of metals used in fasteners. I worked in the metal fabricating business and we routinely matched metal fasteners on more simple and less expensive items. It’s not hard if you try.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    Not really. I have made built NSX motors and their aluminum block sucks. When steel studs go in you can have black corrosion in a car 5 years old that compromises the stud to block strength causing helicoiling timeserts etc! Amazingly Ferrari has a minimal amount of that with their aluminum foundry blocks and steel studs.
     
  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    so does BMW but I have to tell you that I ignore it because I have no stash of aluminum one time use bolts around. Just the regular steel. It is what it is.
     
  17. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    834
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    Be very wary of switching out nuts and bolts with stainless. Stainless is very susceptible to galling, particularly if you use the same grade of stainless for the nut and for the bolt. You can easily end up in a situation where once you put the nut on they gall together and you can never get them apart again.
     
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  18. APA#1

    APA#1 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,311
    Central Florida
    True, I always use anti seize on ss bolts/nuts.
     
  19. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3

    Jun 20, 2017
    1,677
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    Another reason when I bought my 360 I looked for a car that had spent it's life in CA, NV, AZ, etc.

    I looked at a gated 360 in PA that had hardware everywhere you looked that would have been a disaster to try and remove. My car; all the hardware looks new or almost new. I have not yet encountered an issue when removing anything. But of course the operative phase is "not yet".
     
  20. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Veteran
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    The long bolts holding the cats to the headers are actually zinc coated with stainless hardware, as they have take the highest heat and the springs/spacers are still Ferrari, using stainless there would have been detrimental but I did use it on the bolts that mount the exhaust and tailpipes. Low torque and hopefully will never need removed.
     
  21. albkid

    albkid Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2016
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    Jim
    I understand your point of view. Shoot the messenger, ignore the issue. For the record, I did not allege cheap, I suggested a lack of care.
     

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