Engine out major service, and now no spark or fuel | FerrariChat

Engine out major service, and now no spark or fuel

Discussion in '348/355' started by User-C3, May 23, 2019.

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  1. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    Wondering if its possible my timing is off and causing no spark or fuel? If the phase sensor and crank sensors are not seeing the right signals at the right times will there be no signals sent to the coils and fuel pumps? I had everything lined up and marked all the cams and gears to ensure everything went back in exactly as it came out but totally stumped right now. I checked all the fuses etc, and everything is fine, all connections are hooked up properly and it was running fine before the engine was pulled.
    Any advice or suggestions as to what to look for next? Is it possible to be 180 degrees out of time to cause a no spark no fuel situation?
     
  2. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 12, 2017
    7,672
    Atlanta, GA
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    Steve D.
    Did you plug the crank sensors in to the wrong leads? Do they have too much gap? Do they have too little gap?

    sjd
     
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  3. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    I never took the crank sensors off or unplugged them. I don't think they are the issue, but have no idea at this point.
     
  4. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 12, 2017
    7,672
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    Steve D.
    Both the ECU and the other connector are plugged in behind the seats and well seated? locked and latched?
    sjd
     
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  5. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 12, 2017
    7,672
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    Steve D.
    Remind us how deep you went? did you take the front plate off to inspect the chain tensioners and bearings?

    sjd
     
  6. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    ECU's are plugged in correctly and secured. Front plate did not come off, cams came out for all seals and gaskets, and new belts and tensioners. There was some terrible audio stuff that was all removed. It was an amp, CD changer, and head unit. I just took everything out with all the extra wiring. I cant imagine that has anything to do with this, but also not putting it past at this point.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    aftermarket alarm system? multi-pin plugs by oil filter in? multipin plug by LR quarter panel in? there are multiple plug in with the motronic ECU big connector. The square white one about 1/2"x2" sometimes does not get pulled back through the firewall. Left rear of engine big ground wire is attached? what is the actual battery voltage? you got good cranking? RPM needs to be 30+ before you can make stink. how did you test no spark and no fuel?
     
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  8. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    No alarm system, multi pin connectors by filter are plugged in, all connectors for ecu's and square white connectors are plugged in, big ground to frame and trans are hooked up, and battery is brand new, cranks very hard.
    pulled the fuel line off the filter and it is bone dry, pulled the intake tubes and fogged the intake to try and get fire if it was just a fuel issue, nothing, just cranks.
     
  9. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    407
    Starter relay not sending signal to alarm ECU.
     
  10. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2011
    2,743
    Malaysia - KL
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    Miroljub Stojanovic
    The injection relays (L & D) are activated by the ignition switch and they provide power to the fuel pump relays (N & C) so that the ECU can activate the fuel pump relays during cranking. If the injection relays are not activated, there will be no power to the injectors and the fuel pumps will not run. Check whether the injection relays (L & D) are clicking when you turn the ignition "on". If not, check the fuses 14 & 18 on the footwell panel.
     
  11. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    I did check the fuses in the foot well, all are good, but have not checked the relays yet. I find it hard to imagine they would stop working just in the short time the engine was out. Again, anything is possible and another item I will have to check.

    I am really appreciating all the thought and input. Keep it coming, this helps me keep running through everything in my head.
     
  12. User-C3

    User-C3 Karting

    Aug 29, 2018
    204
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Trevor
    is it possible it could have something to do with the clutch not being bled yet?
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    NO. But a bad flywheel pack and allow the plastic parts to vibrate enough to spoof the crank sensors so the car does not start. However, this problem is 99% seen with hot start once the oiled and failing kluber grease looses viscosity with engine heat.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal

    You mean you did not use a timing light on a spark plug wire for example to check spark. Instead you sprayed starter fluid because of no fuel and the car still did not fire?
     
  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    Maybe post up a bunch of pictures. perhaps we see something over looked like missing ground on valve cover that kind of thing...
     
  16. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,625
    CT
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    John Kreskovsky
    AFAIK, no signal from crank sensor and the ECU thinks the engine is not rotating and doesn't fire coils, fuel pump or injectors.
     
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  17. jjtjr

    jjtjr Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2016
    668
    Vermont
    Full Name:
    john truskowski
    Read the post in this section "cam phase sensor malfunction", and see what is required for these cars to obtain spark, and you may uncover your cause. And of course triple check ALL of your connections. No crank/cam signal, no spark or fuel.
     
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  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    If you really have everything hooked up right with no connection faults look at the crank sensors. Things can get sloppy with engine outs like coolant baths on crank sensors.
     
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  19. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,562
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
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    Tim Dee

    Check that area s he states
    I think the crank sensors need to see 30 rpm to fire the relays

    grounds grounds grounds
     
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  20. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    407
    Clutch not being bled is possible - post 12
     
  21. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
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    Ian Riddell
    Did you accidentally swap the cam sensor plug with the knock sensor plug at the back of the right bank?

    Can you get a scanner to communicate with the ECUs to see if they're showing anything?
     
  22. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    Miroljub Stojanovic
    If the injection relays are clicking (coming on) at ignition "on", I would next, just in case, open the cam sensor cover and make sure the reluctor "dish" is in place and properly tightened.
     
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  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,574
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    I would check:

    1) Double check your triple checks of all grounds, especial main ground to the subframe and valve covers
    2) Motronic T55 connectors (that the old pins are making proper contact) are properly seated in the Motronic receptor, and that the ECUs are bolted to the firewall
    3) Main wiring harness looms is are not shorting out in the hole through the firewall, and that the rubber grommet is fully seated in the holes protecting the looms
    4) Crank sensors, condition of the female plugs, and that they are attached to the proper sensor
    5) Cam sensor to make sure it is not contaminated with oil inside the housing, and the condition of the connector
    6) Barrel connector on the left hand shock tower is connected properly
    7) Resistance for the throttle position sensors is within spec
    8) Fuel pumps run when powered with a jumper
    9) Make sure that you do not have any type of after market car alarm covertly hooked up
    10) Fuse panel in passenger foot well is getting power and properly grounded.
    11) Coil packs and ignition control modules are connected properly
    12) coolant temp sensors are properly hooked up

    If all that checks out.....

    13) disconnect the cat temp TCUs just to make sure they are not accidentally preventing the engine from starting
     
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  24. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,214
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Double check where you removed the stereo wiring to be sure you didn't disable something important.
     
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  25. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    Apr 12, 2017
    7,672
    Atlanta, GA
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    Steve D.
    Especially if they used those crimp on splices where it cuts through the insulation.

    sjd
     
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