Supply and Demand

I agree 100% and since more and more of us are getting aware of predators less and less are willing to share informations about parts sources.
I admit I am one of those. I meanwhile only share parts source informations via PM. But I feel forced doing so.
This is not my understanding of a public forum.

Best
Martin

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding but would it be possible to get a clarification of definition of what constitutes a 'Genuine Ferrari Chatter' as I fear I will fall very short

On my end I'm pretty new to the community having been here only since 2002. In that time I posted lightly barely cracking 5000 posts most of which were providing information on parts sources, technical help, DIY tips, and experience gained from some restorations I have done as a hobby (never been to the P&R section). On that subject I did undertake a 3.5 year 7000 man hour restoration on a Dino shared here and on a dedicated blog with thousands of pictures and outlining in detail dozens of restoration and service procedures. This included investing hundreds of hours into having rare parts perfectly reproduced and made available for those struggling to get their restorations correctly completed. Alas I'll always be upside down financially in these ventures but at least the parts are out there as Ferrari will not make them any more. Over the years I have spent countless hours on the phone and written hundreds of e-mails and PM's with other F-Chatters guiding them through their problems. I have loaned tools shipped all over the country, met with owners at their home, done a full 308 engine out major service with valve changes at no cost, tuned carbs on Sundays, and on several occasions went to go see cars that were over a 100 miles away for an out of town person never asking for a dime. Occasionally in my travels I come across some NOS parts so I collect them and use them normally on a trade basis to get something else I may need or sell them for what the market determines is correct. Sure sometimes some people don't agree with the market but my prices are set normally lower than any other option and I always do my best to represent things well and offer transparency in my dealings and the people I have sold to have always seemed happy with their transaction.

Despite my best efforts I still feel I'm a total rookie here and do not deserve the title of 'Genuine Ferrari Chatter'. Can you please set me straight and let me know what I need to do to right my ship? Please save me from my predatory abyss.

 

This such an ... odd... thread.

If it's targeted, perhaps best to end the thread now. This forum is rather great for lacking drama and ill-will, would be unfortunate for that to not continue.

 

Andrew, Much of the stress is caused by the desire to be 100% original. I can understand that desire but don't share it. I think if you do choose that route you have to embrace or at least accept the challenges-- the stress, costs, and additional work that it entails (and deal with the market taking advantage of the dwindling supply of parts.) If you need some help coming over to the dark side, looking at it in purely economic terms, the market will only pay the cost of 100% originality for the very rarest handful of 308s (very low documented mileage and/or celebrity ownership.) These are not very rare cars and the middle market where they sit is generally price sensitive and less pedantic. If had had some rare original parts, or knew where the last few were, I'd sell them at or close to what the market could bear (and use the proceeds to keep my hobby affordable

 

I completely agree. Of course, if you are a concours participant, you have to have a different mind set re needing original/original-appearing parts. But for my 328, if the original part can't be rebuilt/restored, I wouldn't try to find an original mechanical part if there are available aftermarket parts that can serve the same function.

For example, there is a recent thread re door switches. I wouldn't spend more than 5 minutes checking to see if the original-type door switches were available from Ricambi/whoever. If not, I would just cobble up a repair to the original, as the OP of that thread did, or modify some easily available door switch to do the job. Admittedly, there are some items that need to be/look original but a lot of parts are either NOT visible to anybody but the installer or might be visible under some conditions but no-one except a concours judge and some Ferrari geeks would recognize (or care) if it is not original. I think of engine hoses/clamps, tires, as well as many other items, in that category.

Heck, most people see my 328 and comment that it's the "Magnum car." I'm pretty sure they wouldn't notice that the aftermarket tube to the throttle body is incorrect and that an ugly-A$$ corrugated rubber hose is the original item, etc!

 

Try sourcing a new windshield with the proper tint ... there were 5 in north America ... 7 in Europe... lots of aftermarket ones with no tinting... cost - $1100 to $3000 per windshield depending + shipping.

 

>> To get back to the original point of the thread
>> I was trying to understand how we can increase the supply of rare parts by getting more organised remanufacture through a parts supplier like Maranello
>> I was trying to find a method of informing fchatters about cars going to scrap or recently scrapped.
>> Increasing parts supply is the only way to overcome basic supply and demand economics.

Those are nobel goals and I hope they can come to pass.

I'm a bit of a hobbiest with a well equipped shop and have been looking at a number of the rare parts being sought by owners and figure many wouldn't be that hard to remanufacture in my own shop. Plastic parts for example and things like that switch. They were originally made in low numbers and likely in a shop equipped no better than mine. If people who have the ability and love for the sport continue to put in the effort to make high quality reproductions of the original parts, then these cars, or better put, "works of art", can last for many generations to come.

People who absolutely require original parts are going to run into dead ends eventually or pay spiraling costs to keep their cars going.

 

Yeah - I looked at the other post Andrew made about the door switches, and I think someone said there were some available in black, but not white. I immediately think - ok - how hard would it be to 3D print the white plastic part, and swap it? For those who want "close, but no cigar". For those who need concourse originality there's a price to pay. For those who want functionality, black will do. But for those who want it close, it can't be that hard - at least not for that part.

I have real hope that 3D printing will open up a whole new world of reproduction parts that are currently unobtainable.

 

Sometimes 3D-printing is overrated. At least simply not necessary. I turned a new white plastic plunger on the lathe in 5 minutes. How to turn a half-ball by hand I learned during the early 1980 years
I'm in the plastics manufacturing business and allow me to state, that there' a lot of wank out there regarding 3D-printing.
Especially if folks forget about the old, classic manufacturing methods even for the most simple parts.
I'm a mechanical engineer in the 50s and have to convince kids in the 20s, that for some parts milling and turning is still better than 3D-printing. Oh my!

Best from Germany
Martin

 

There are more differences to the part than simply the plunger color. The base itself is wider, and requires enlarging the mount hole. The connection for the wiring is also slightly different (and honestly, a bit annoying.)

So - they DO work, but it's a different part. Not just a different color.

 

Ok - that I wasn't aware of - thanks!

 

Well, yes but - I don't have a lathe. Until 2 weeks ago I didn't even have a socket set. So whilst you might call 3D printing "wank" and you have a lathe were you can create one - I don't. Where 3D printing is cool for me is I can create the pattern, send it out for printing, and I get a product back without having any hardware at all.

Plus, 3D printing can make a square or other shaped part. Try that on your lathe.

Sorry - just found your response to be a bit insular and ignorant. As if the only parts ever made are round and can be made in lathes. That's not reality.

 

>> Plus, 3D printing can make a square or other shaped part. Try that on your lathe.

I think you missed his comment about milling. Sure, a lathe can make round things but a mill can make any shape.

When it comes to 3D printing, most of the stuff that results is weak and can't be used for anything structural or in a situation where there is repeated stress. Thermoplastic is also subject to the laws of physics and a car that's sitting in the sun might get hot enough to severely weaken a 3D printed part or even melt it. Machining allows an incredibly wide variety of materials with a much wider set of properties. Eventually, 3D additive printing will catch up to "subtractive" machining. So the idea that 3D printing is "wank" (whatever that really means), could just be referring to the fact that most 3D printers are merely toys and not useful for making production grade products.

There are some highly capable 3D printing systems that use lasers and arcs to sinter metal into useful shapes. Those machines are producing production grade products but cost millions of dollars to purchase and many thousands an hour to run.

 

Laser sintering machines are coming down in price quickly. I looked at one system last year for making small metal parts and the system was $30k delivered. The same system this year is $10k.

A lot of plastic parts in cars are ABS. My 3D printer prints ABS. I am currently testing some 3D parts in the engine bay and so far no sign of heat damage. I am very impressed with the quality of what the printer produces. Obviously it’s not useful for everything but for many things it’s a valid alternative to injection moulding.

My 3D printed spool reel:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

The cost of manufacturing small runs of parts is coming down rapidly. Lower barriers of entry mean more hobbyists like me can make parts. This is great for keeping old cars running and maintained.







Regards
David

 

And a 3D printer can do thing that neither a lathe nor a mill can do.

3D printing might have come a long way since you last checked. Sure - I wouldn't 3D print a suspension wishbone, but 3D print a window switch or a light stalk - for sure.

"wank" is the term used for masturbating outside the US. But again - most 3D printers are toys might have been true years ago - things have changed.

But hey - you have your opinion, I have mine. We're not going to change each others minds obviously, so we can just leave it there.

 

>> But hey - you have your opinion, I have mine. We're not going to change each others minds obviously, so we can just leave it there.

I think you'll find me quite open minded. Convince me and I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. I looked at purchasing a 3D printer, a good one, a few years ago and I couldn't find anything worthy. Maybe it's time to take another look.

 

I've personally never looked at buying one - my 3D design skills are severely lacking - even worse than my graphic design skills. But we have one at work that one of my devs uses to make boxes and cases for our specialist equipment etc, and from what I have seen the end result is pretty good - sure, not wishbone level, but certainly up to the task. And I believe it's a cheaper printer than most of the 4 axis mills I've looked at.

 

Martin is a very smart individual with a great sense of humor, pretty sure he meant no offense. With that said, I would like to borrow his term ”wank” and incorporate it into the few situations I am facing lately!

 

Of course you are all perfectly right regarding the capabilities of 3D-printing when it comes to complex parts. But hey; We talked about a door switch plunger originally. Basically a round part with a center bore on one end and a hemisphere on the other.

I am currently working on a prototype for a mass production item and we use 3D-printing for getting the parts fast, so that we can show the assembled result to the customer asap and have a further base for discussions. That's the biggest benefit of 3D-printing. But we design the parts that way, that we can injection mould them in the end, when it comes to serious production.
That's another great benefit of 3D-printing. That we can perform some trial-and-error and adjusting the parts before making a hugely expensive mould die.

Best from Germany
Martin

 

Hey David..

Send me your contact info. I have some questions about printing plastic parts.. Send it to [email protected].

Thanks,

Don B.

 

As one who likes originality, to a degree, I would love to see a supply of reproduction parts become available. However, the reality of small production runs, licensing issues, logistics, and a myriad of other things, often makes producing these parts impossible for a reasonable cost, and being able to offer them at a reasonable retail price. The door switches for example could be made in China for probably a couple of dollars each. If one were to order 1000 of them!

It seems that the scarcity of parts lies in trim pieces and non hard parts. More and more drive train and engine parts are becoming available, and often times are much better quality than the original parts. Case in point Hill Engineering, and a couple of companies that are making gear box parts.

With regards to trim and small parts, perhaps, we could start a site/thread or whatever, where we would post what we need. Then, when enough people need the same things then perhaps Maranello Classic Parts, or whomever might be able to help? Sort of like Michelin does with the TRX tires. When Coker Tire gets enough orders, then Michelin runs the production.

Just food for thought.