New GPF = worse exhaust note on new Ferraris? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

New GPF = worse exhaust note on new Ferraris?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by RayJohns, Jun 22, 2019.

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  1. thebigo

    thebigo Karting

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    #26 thebigo, Jun 23, 2019
    The mechanical engine noise seems almost louder than the exhaust.
     
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  2. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

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    #27 leopoldo, Jun 23, 2019
    No please .. I hope my 2020 pista spider will come without this devilry!!!!
     
  3. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #28 PhilNotHill, Jun 23, 2019
    Which reminds me how ecstatic l am with how my 458 spider sounds with the lines to the baffles disconnected. Ciao Bella!
     
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  4. skinguy23

    skinguy23 Formula Junior

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    #29 skinguy23, Jun 23, 2019
    They can’t do that on the Pista. Please do not. I have a 2020 coming...

    Call it a MY 2019 then and leave the damn thing off


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  5. skinguy23

    skinguy23 Formula Junior

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    #30 skinguy23, Jun 23, 2019
  6. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    #31 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
    Here is a pretty good paper on GDI and the GPF technology, which I just ran across:

    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/227/1/012081/pdf

    The whole setup sounds pretty whack to me. If you read the link above, it sounds like the GPF slowly fills up with particles, then has to be recycled by injecting fuel into the system. So if that's the case (i.e. at some point you super heat the GPF to rid it of all the particles it's collected), then what's the point of it collecting everything in the first place? Unless super heating it changes their composition in some manner or something. It just seems like a dog chasing its tail to me. Also, this sort of begs the question: if it's cleaned by super heating, why doesn't this just naturally occur in the already super heated catalytic converter?

    It sort of seems like a diesel technology that is being forced upon gasoline engines, without really checking to see if it makes much difference.

    I'd also be curious to know if Ferrari has switched to a strictly GDI setup for their fuel injection now or if they are using more of a hybrid injection system like Toyota is going with. If it's GDI only, that doesn't bode well for keeping the valves clean longer term on these motors. With strictly GDI, the intake valves don't receive any gasoline cleaning effect like with normal fuel injection and this typically leads to rather excessive carbon build up on the intake valves. Cleaning that off is a straight up nightmare.

    Frankly, for me, things have diverged down such a path recently - not just with Ferrari, but with the entire automotive industry in general - that I really have no plans to buy any new cars any longer. I'm currently rebuilding my old '90 Toyota pickup truck and I'm just going to call that good. It has one ECU, a motor that lasts 500K miles and a gearbox that can probably withstand 3 times the power the motor makes.

    The only Ferrari I can see myself ever owning again is maybe another 458 or perhaps one of the V12 cars; something built prior to mid-2019. The music these cars are famous for is all but gone in the new line-up.

    Ray
     
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  7. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

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    #32 ScrappyB, Jun 23, 2019
    It’s been a mystery to me why McLaren continues to use PFI on all of its engines..... could it be that they deliberately avoided GDI to not require GPFs in the future?


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    #33 JTSE30, Jun 23, 2019
    I doubt it was deliberate to avoid GPF because the McLaren engine is based on the 1989 Nissan engine:

    https://jalopnik.com/this-20-year-old-nissan-is-the-origin-of-all-of-mclaren-1793155467

    Ferrari started using GDI on regular production over 10 years ago (well before GPF)

    https://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/27/direct-fuel-injection-coming-to-ferrari-in-2009/
     
  9. RayJohns

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    #34 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
    PFI is a better route to take in my opinion. It accomplishes all you need. The fuel system can run at more rational pressures, which increases longevity of all the parts in the fuel system. PFI reduces having everything running at these crazy 1000-3000 PSI pressures which GDI require. Additionally, when you get into using GDI, fuel is injected under the intake valve, not above it. This design inadvertently eliminates the cleaning action gas provides to the intake valves. With GDI, carbon builds up on the intake valves and can require quite extensive measures to be removed. Do you really want this occurring on your supercar, just so manufacturers can claim slightly better MPG?

    GDI falls into the category of "just because you can do it, doesn't always mean you should" for me.

    Ray
     
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  10. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    #35 MalibuGuy, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    Ray since you didn’t find satisfaction with the 488, I think you most likely won’t be happy with the F8 either. Even if there was the option to remove the new particulate filter since you live in the USA—the exhaust music wouldn’t be any better than the 488 which obviously lacks the filter.

    Yes a NA -12 like the F12 or 812 sounds better. But these cars have a different layout and feel. More GT. Not sayin better or worse just different from the mid rear V8 sports series which have been winning at LeMans the last five years!

    Perhaps if Ferrari develops an electric turbo V8 which doesn’t affect the exhaust note, there can be a return of the kind of engine music that you and many of us long for.
     
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  11. C50

    C50 Formula 3

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    #36 C50, Jun 23, 2019
    Presuming the next iteration is based on the SF90 architecture, or even F8, it will have GPF.

    I think if the brilliant engineers at Ferrari could coax an outstanding sound from the F8, they would done so. Based on what’s available to hear online, the results are lackluster.

    the days of a tingle-inducing, screaming exhaust note from new F cars has long passed.
    Sad but the new reality.
    Remains to be seen if this will have any impact other than on nostalgia-seekers purchase habits.
     
  12. Solid State

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    #37 Solid State, Jun 23, 2019
    Or put a V12 in a mid engine without elecrics. Electric turbo is still a turbo and kills the sound. High revving, unassisted NA V12 is the ticket - always has been.
     
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  13. SLDriver

    SLDriver Formula Junior

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    #38 SLDriver, Jun 23, 2019
    North American MY19 Ferrari's didn't have GPF unless I'm reading this doc incorrectly.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    #39 MalibuGuy, Jun 23, 2019
    Fol
    Simple Folk like Eric Clapton have made that request!

    Ferrari gave him a 5 M V8 instead
     
  15. gzachary

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    #40 gzachary, Jun 23, 2019
    Perhaps it is time for a new variant of the poll I put up several weeks ago attempting to highlight two things: a) what are people looking for as the enjoyment in the car? The extra performance or the sound,etc and thus what car would they pick and b) what existing Ferrari sports product would they migrate from to the SF90 or keep? The comments were interesting as well. Interestingly over time, the 458 started increasing in the polls.

    I was aware of GPF then and had taken delivery of my 812, had my 458 since 2011, and was about to receive my Pista.

    See here: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/poll-pick-3-out-of-4-for-your-garage-458-pista-sf90-and-or-812sf.601115/

    Maybe someone wants to try a a better worded / more specific poll than I put up.

    Thanks.
     
  16. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    #41 MalibuGuy, Jun 23, 2019
    Here is just some of my own whiskey talk..
    How difficult or costly would it be to upgrade the 488 to electric turbos?

    Need a beefier alternator and bigger battery.
    Need electric turbos but I think the prototypes already exist. Then need some software mapping talent.

    I think Ferrari or maybe an aftermarket should give it a thought.
     
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  17. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    #42 Solid State, Jun 23, 2019
    Indeed. For 5M it better have a V12. I think Ray should just get an F12 since he's not opposed. Huge value, 740 cv and 8700 rpm. Mid-front engine Kamm tail PF masterpiece with amazing NA V12 music. No turbo, no electric, no solid lifters, no GPF, no autobrake or other new nannies.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  18. RayJohns

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    #43 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
    Last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with a high revving normally aspirated V8 or V12!

    :)

    Ray
     
  19. RayJohns

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    #44 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
    The F12, Lusso and 812 are tops on the list these days, let me tell ya. I'm still kicking myself for not buying that one F40 LM back in the late 90's!

    Ray
     
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  20. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    #45 JTSE30, Jun 23, 2019
    100% correct, no production Ferrari at this moment has the GPF, that will change soon, but, guaranteed, all MY2019 and previous production does not include GPF.
     
  21. C50

    C50 Formula 3

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    #46 C50, Jun 23, 2019
    Very interesting regarding the 458
    History will ultimately declare the victor

    I made a poll a couple days ago regarding GPF, but not much participation thus far
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/gpf-poll-will-it-influence-future-purchases.602434/
     
  22. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    #47 JTSE30, Jun 23, 2019
    An "electric turbocharger" simply spins up the turbo impeller before there are sufficient exhaust gases to perform the normal functioning of a turbo charger (to eliminate turbo lag). As a result, it adds weight and complexity, and since Ferrari already pretty much solved the turbo lag issue, it would be of little use or so it seems...
     
  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    #48 JTSE30, Jun 23, 2019
    Sort of like asking about if a car should have CVT or not, unless someone is already aware of it they might not yet have sufficient information to voice an opinion...but, that'll change, maybe it'll take a year but awareness will begin to grow...
     
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  24. RayJohns

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    #49 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
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  25. RayJohns

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    #50 RayJohns, Jun 23, 2019
    That's a very good point. I'm sure most people buy cars with CVT's without even a second thought. My sister just did, despite my urging to buy the model without it. What can you do? Until the transmission fails, nobody cares.

    Anyone who as torn down both a manual gearbox transmission and a CVT transmission would laugh out loud if you asked them if they'd consider buying a car that had a CVT.

    Ray
     
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