Birdman 308 window fix success stories / tips? | FerrariChat

Birdman 308 window fix success stories / tips?

Discussion in '308/328' started by eracer, Jul 7, 2019.

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  1. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    Eric W.
    #1 eracer, Jul 7, 2019
    Hi all. I know this topic has been discussed in one form or another many times, but I searched and was unable to find a thread where folks who had done this fix posted about their success (failure?) and any tips they learned along the way.

    I'm about to embark on this journey and would really love to hear from those who have been there. I don't plan on adding the accelerators, just cleaning out the gunk and stringing new cables. I have an '82 GTSi. Thanks!
     
  2. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #2 Martin308GTB, Jul 7, 2019
    ferrariowner likes this.
  3. dflett

    dflett Formula 3

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    #3 dflett, Jul 7, 2019
    I followed his procedure and cleaned out the old grease and changed the cables and my windows went from slow and sticking to an acceptable speed and not sticking. No accelerators needed for me. That must have been 3 or 4 years ago.


    Regards
    David
     
  4. jmaienza

    jmaienza Formula Junior
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    #4 jmaienza, Jul 7, 2019
    Birdman's article is good start. Check the condition of your cable, If it is good you do not have to replace it. Before you begin, mark the cable where it is bolted to the bottom of the window. I did this and it helped me when I had to re-thread it on the spool and pulleys.

    Cleaning and re-greasing the motor will help, but without some electrical work (accelerators or relays) you won't be getting full voltage to those motors.
     
  5. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

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    #5 ferrariowner, Jul 7, 2019
    All the electric current for the window motors passes thru the window switches. All modern automakers uses relays to handle the current required for window motors. The same guy at Ferrari who designed the air conditioners designed the electric window circuits.
     
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  6. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
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    #6 Ferraridoc, Jul 8, 2019
    I used the two relay (per side) fix. Didn't need to look at the motors, although I might service them one day just to suck 20 hours out of my life that I'll never get back
     
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  7. waymar

    waymar Formula 3

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    #7 waymar, Jul 8, 2019
    FWIW when I went through this project. I also changed out the window channel felt. Made an additional difference.
     
  8. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #8 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    Thanks for all the great info and tips!

    My driver window operates, but very, very, slowly, and my passenger window only just barely budges. I switched the switches around and got the same result. The passenger window operates with the manual crank, but is very stiff (driver side a little more easily). I took the passenger door panel off and can see that the cables are in great shape with no fraying. The window channel felt appears to be in really good shape too. The motors have never been apart/cleaned in 37 years. This all leads me to believe it's gunked-up original lubricant. I was not aware that the cable does not need to be replaced to clean and re-lube the motor, so that is GREAT news. Replacing the cable appears to be the most challenging part of the Birdman process. I don't need the windows to be fast, just to operate smoothly.

    I'm going to dive into this project tomorrow. So thanks everyone, and any additional insights would be much appreciated.
     
  9. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #9 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    Marking the cable is a great tip. Do you recall any other issues/solutions you ran into when reusing the cable?
     
  10. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #10 Martin308GTB, Jul 8, 2019
    BTW. There is a great, but unfortunately super rare helper tool for holding the cable on the pulley while installing it.
    I got it together with a used gear/motor-assembly I purchased from TRutlands 18 years ago. Saves me a lot of time and curse. I believe it came with new spares formerly and rarely anyone kept it.
    Maybe a project for Unobtainium Supply?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
  11. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #11 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    Hi Martin,
    That looks like something I could very easily draw up in Fusion 360 and then 3D print. If you could supply the dimension of the inside diameter, the thickness (depth actually), a top (plan) view photo, and a couple other photo views, I could scale the rest. I would very happily share the design and print file with the community for all future power window repairers. THANKS!!
     
  12. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #12 Martin308GTB, Jul 8, 2019
    I could model it in PTC Creo and supply you a step, x_t (Parasolid) or any other format file.
    When choosing a material please be aware, that it has to have good spring elastic properties.
    What would you recommend?

    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
  13. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #13 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    Hi Martin,

    That would be WONDERFUL! I could import either of those file types into Fusion 360 and then create an .stl file to print. As far as materials, I am just a hobbyist and only have PLA or PETG at my disposal. I have used these materials for other custom tools I've had to design in the past and they can be quite strong/elastic/durable if sliced and oriented properly. It'd certainly be worth a try!

    Many thanks, Eric.
     
  14. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #14 Martin308GTB, Jul 8, 2019
    Of course I can also supply .stl. I'm currently designing a prototype for a consumer product using MJF PA12 3D-print.
    It's great regarding precision (80 micron layers) and strength but not so great regarding wear and surface quality.

    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
  15. jmaienza

    jmaienza Formula Junior
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    #15 jmaienza, Jul 8, 2019
    1. I would make a diagram of the cable path for each door. The cable crosses in front of itself at one point.-note this configuration very carefully.
    2. Make a note of there the cable enters and exits the spool. It has to go between two specific posts that holds the two side brackets together.
    3. Check the condition of the 2 bump stops at the bottom of the door. They are usually in poor condition. There are a few threads about alternative parts.

    Also, its not an official repair if you don't bleed and scratch your forearms!
     
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  16. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #16 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    I think an .stl file and the associated step file would be ideal. That way if I have to make any tweaks to fit my car's situation, I can modify the part in Fusion 360. THANKS!!!
     
  17. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #17 eracer, Jul 8, 2019
    Very, very helpful. Thank you.

    Funny you should say that, 'cause I told my wife yesterday to expect lots of swearing, cut fingers, and scratched forearms (just like every Ferrari repair) LOL!
     
  18. redqv

    redqv Karting
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    #18 redqv, Jul 8, 2019
    I changed the wiring to the two relay system on each window and just that made a big difference. The only tip I would have is to use thin welding wire with a lot of silicone lubricant as a snake through the existing door looms.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  19. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    #19 johnk..., Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
    My windows were never slow but would bind going up or down. Cleaned old greas out of motors and now this is the result. No "fast windows" fixes. This is 100% Ferrari factor original switches and wiring on my 85 GTB QV. Posted for reference as to how they should operate. I don't know it this si considered fast or slow or what ever. And before someone asks, yes, it's real time. About 3 sec down, 3 sec up. :)

     
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  20. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
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    #20 Ferraridoc, Jul 8, 2019
    I used the (already quite thick) OEM wires to the doors, but intercepted them at the last connector block, behind the dash on each side
     
  21. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #21 eracer, Jul 9, 2019
    That is a great point of reference for the ideal stock window speed. If I can get mine to go half that fast I'll be pleased. Thank you for posting the video.
     
  22. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #22 Martin308GTB, Jul 9, 2019
    Hi Eric,

    a small after-work hours job. If you send me your e-mail address via PM (Conversations) I can send you the step file. The stl. you can make yourself, since you have to set it up for your individual needs.

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    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
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  23. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    #23 GordonC, Jul 9, 2019
    Eric, After you get the .stl file set up, I'd love to get a copy please. I have a 3D printer and can give this a try also!

    Cheers,
    Gordon
     
  24. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    #24 Martin308GTB, Jul 9, 2019
    If you tell me the reasonable or wished resolution (size of the triangles) I can create the .stl too.

    Best
    Martin
     
  25. eracer

    eracer Karting

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    #25 eracer, Jul 9, 2019
    Martin,

    It was unbelievably kind of you to take the time to draw this up for me. Many, many thanks!!!

    I'll send a PM next. If you don't receive it, please let me know. It will be the first time I've done that.

    Also, Is the function self-explanatory? I've yet to take the cable off. And, do you mind if I forward your design on to others on Fchat? I see we've already got one interested party...:)

    Best regards,
    Eric.
     
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